Definitely a valid point for anyone person with personal experience on a topic where a stranger attempts to know better.
I think this phenomenon comes from the idea that the children are humans who are living in a human society. Sure at home the parent is boss and figuratively can do whatever they want in respect to rearing, however when you bring your child into society, or when they grow to adult age, they must know how to function and respect society. Sure this is a vital part of the parent's job of upbringing, but as parents are, they love their children (or should) unconditionally and this brings a subconscious level of bias which the parent cannot always control.
Take the Fritzl case for example, where a parent raised (to his idea of 'correct') his children under entirely his rule and judgement. I don't think they're doing as well as they could in society now. Granted this is the extreme-of-extreme situations, and by no means reflects the entire population, but one must realize there is a fraction of bias and arrogance in thinking that one has absolute rule and judgement on one's own offspring.
This is a sweet story. And kinda sums up what I'm trying to say. I seem to come across a disproportinately large number of people like the woman in line behind ShaysLou. That's not to say I haven't also encountered people like the nice farmer. I just find the balance here in Switzerland to tip towards the woman's behaviour whereas the balance in somewhere like Greece for example to be towards the farmer's attitude.
Anyway, I don't expect everyone we meet out in Swiss society to like my kids. But if you are one of those people with a tendency towards the example of the woman in the story, then I just cannot understand why you'd go work in a school, or open a toy shop, or teach kids to ski or go to a noisy pizza restaurant at 7pm on a Friday night and expect the kids to sit quietly while the whole place is in uproar?
Yes, because it's far less fantastical for there to be pervasive intolerance of children en Suisse...This is, after all, the land of Hansel & Gretel, the Suisse are here to eat your kids behind your backs
Ever since I've lived in CH I've had at least double the average number of children in a Swiss family. I moved here from Utah, where large families are the norm and my family of 5 was considered quite small. Now with a family of 8 I would dare to say kids are very welcome in CH as long as they are healthy, quiet, good in math, play soccer, raise their hand at least every 10 minutes in school with a comment, can write letters in a grid sheet,...
With all my kids in tow, we make a lot of noise, but i would argue one child alone makes a lot of noise as well, sometimes more than six. I only have to raise mine, not anyone else's, and thank heavens no one else is responsible to raise mine. When I get negative comments from stores, from ice cream shops, from restaurants, and even doctors, -- I usually leave and tell the offending employee that I was going to use our hard earned money to help pay their salary. I take my kids and my money somewhere else where the employees might be more appreciative.
Good luck to the OP and all other parents who are doing their best. It's an important job, keep it up.
I'm not entirely sure I believe he was raising them in a way he felt was "correct." I mean, if you believe his story about saving his daughter from herself, then I suppose you could. However, some might argue he knew it was wrong but did it to satisfy his own selfish needs.
Very true....that's why I put "correct" in quotations. But along those lines, the same could be said about any parent on any parenting decision. No parent would ever admit that any of their parenting decisions were based on selfish needs
Again before this potentially blows out of proportion, it was used as an extreme example to show that one's personal beliefs, not matter how strong and correct they seem in one's head, do not always mesh well with the 'rest' of society.
The day I realized I must be completely paranoid was in Italy, when my daughter was five, being, of course a beauty she had very long hair (did I mention she's red-haired like her mom?) and we were at a pizzeria. Now this Italian young man who was making the pizzas put on a show for her and I felt very uneasy.
And there was this one time in a Swiss restaurant where an elderly farmer came to our table, admired her hair and gave her 5 Franks...LOL
It's not what I meant. I get that your quotations represent his version of correct.
But I'm not talking about the subjectivity of parenting. I'm saying that one could believe he made up those stories to cover his arse after the fact. When he did it, there was no thought of discipline or correction at all. It was just to satisfy his sexual and other twisted needs.
But yes, if we assume he was truthful about it being to supposedly help his daughter, then it's an extreme example as you said (and I get your point and agree).
I think there are a lot of bad parents who don't know what the heck is going on who ruin it for the good ones. During my Commute From Hades with a cast on my foor, one day I managed to guilt someone into giving me a seat across from a very fidgety five or six year old. This kid kicked my cast with one jerky fidget and icasked him nicely to please not touch my foot. He then proceeded to aim and kick and smile at me like "gee aren't I cute" as I noticeably screamed in pain. I managed to gasp out a plea to his mother in French to please stop- at which point the mother laughed and said, "he's just a kid." I asked if she could tell him to stop and she told me to move if I didn't like it. In a full train. On crutches. On what planet is that ok?
So I think a lot of the child shushers and stink eye givers are shellshocked from experiences like that. It doesn't make it ok, but it is what it is. I think out of control parents are wrong, and I think the tut-tutters are wrong. Sadly sometimes good parents and kids fall through the cracks in the judgement game.
But since I'm not a parent, I don't have any right to judge if his behavior was socially acceptable or not, right? I mean, "he's just a kid." I would never shush a kid, and in all honesty if he had been two or so it would have been a different story. But I guess that isn't my call to make either.
For the most part we've had good experiences when out and about with my 4.5 year old. On public transport etc a lot of people have given up seats etc for us and tended to give you more of a break when he was smaller and we took him around in a pram or Baby Björn.
We eat out with him regularly and he knows how to behave at restaurants
- though he loses patience if he feels left out of the conversation.
Whatever you do and however hard you try, there will be the occasion when a tantrum is thrown in the middle of somewhere public - so you just deal with it and ignore others. If somebody else's kid kicks off on the tram etc I take the "been there, done that" attitude - in return for all the times I got given breaks in similar situations.
I would not dream of taking my child to a restaurant in the evening - and on a shopping trip we try to fit in a visit to a play park or something else pleasant.
My point was specific at "good" parents having to deal with people without experience telling them what they should do while they have no freaking idea what it is about.
Having someone who doesn't have kids telling me that I shouldn't put my daughter in time out, that I may be a bit too harsh with her is what I am talking about.
Having someone telling you to do something in a situation is different than suggesting. And believe me, it is very different. Someone who doesn't have kids may know quite a lot but the way you say things is the key.
Many people have a very good idea of what it is but it is a very different idea when you deal with it on a daily basis.
Apart from the numerous well-equipped play parks, community centres with lots of activities, zoos, forests, kids libraries, facilities for children really are terrible here.
How dare you talk about pensioners without being a pensioner! Until you are a pensioner you can't possibly talk about them, surely
LOL.
As Nick says, kids have it tough here. Woods, the great outdoors all around them, ski slopes, swimming pools, mountain biking, ice hockey, football, tennis, kids clubs, small classes, great and fun teachers (yes, honest they are), and a community that cares. Cares enough at times to say 'no' or 'enough' or even 'that is wrong, stop it'. As they also used to say in the UK and still say so in some rural parts 'it takes a community to raise a kid' (with fun, kindness but firmness too).
Actually we are both pensioners. The sort who have a fab time with grand kids, help with local kids with homework, help with the local school on trips, caving, skiing, cross country skiing. Babysit for free for parents with young kids. Horrible, ghastly- and we are Swiss too. What is the world coming to
And this is what I am talking about. Non-parents making a scene when we mention that in fact non-parents take the right to tell parents how to deal with our kids, but they don't want parents to tell them, that maybe, just maybe, they don't know what they talk about.
Well here's the key issue with perspective. All parents believe they are good parents. When a stranger (potentially a non-parent) corrects you, perhaps they are calling you a bad parent, but perhaps they are giving friendly advice which may enrich your life and nourish your child.
I never turn down advice, even if the person is well below educated or experienced in said topic, that is just ignorant and arrogant behavior in my opinion. The choice to use and follow the advice is totally up to me, but it never hurts to hear another point of view.
Surely if kids are very badly behaved and making people's life difficult- be it in a restaurant, in the train, in their block of flats, etc, etc (not talking about kids playing and laughing, just being happy kids) - are you saying that those people should shut up because they are not parents? I was a parent, and now a granny- does that give me the right to comment on bad behaviour, just because I had kids. You do not have to be a parent to know really bad behaviour when you see it- and if a kid had kicked my leg during the two years I was on crutches and sticks to learn to walk again (before I was a mother) they would have heard about it, that is for sure. In Nicole's case I would have called the train inspector actually.
How silly to say non-parents cannot comment on bad behaviour. Although I totally agree that until one is a parent, it is difficult to imagine how difficult it can be at times. Of course especially for some parents who have children with conditions like adht or autism, which is not apparent at first sight. You do not have to be the parent of a child with such problems to not realise that it may be very difficult at times either.