For CH rentals, there's home.ch and homegate.ch, but they really don't have many FR listings. Can anyone recommend a decent site for FR that is EN friendly? I'm mostly coming across sites aimed at holiday rentals...
Thanks
I'm following this thread with great interest as I may be moving to Basel shortly.
I must say that I am still not quite used to it, but I love the dry UK humour...
Good Input Treverus! I was going to bring those points too. The main big thing for me was about childcare. Is cost hell lots of money in CH while it is very affordable in France and Germany. And when the difference of price is in the 4 digits per months!! (approx. 2500 chf in ch and 400 euro in germany)
Honestly does it really matter? Your neighbours job doesn't make them nicer or more interresting to get in contact with...
How about living in Basel for the cheaper taxes, being close to work, and also being in a city that's bigger/better than St Louis (France) or Weil an Rhein (Germany) and instead go to those places for ... eating out, drinking, shopping etc.
Village mentality? Go and spend a week in Weil am Rhein or even Lorrach and then see what Basel's like. We're not talking Stuttgart or Munich here, but little live-off-the-cross-border-shopping-Swissies towns.
We had the same discussion, but between somewhere north of Zurich and Germany. My husband is German (directly from the Swiss border, actually) and his opinion was -- absolutely CH. Look closely at taxes. We actually asked a German tax advisor and he said forget it -- go to Switzerland. And seriously, Weil? I don't want to offend anyone, but it's not the nicest city.
I do have trouble believing that the southern German schools are worse than the Swiss. Is this based on PISA?
It does matter when you're considering how well you're likely to fit in, and it does when it comes to putting your children into schools, unfortunately. Generally , the offspring of blue collar workers have lower expectations, and that will (and does) affect the behaviour.I'm sure the German school system is as good as the Swiss. But you have to take into account who's going to the schools. Our first five years in CH were spent in Pratteln. The school experience was tough for my kids. Now we've moved out of a manual/factory worker town to a "white collar" area; there's a world of difference. Higher earners are resented by some people on lower incomes. It may not be what you want to hear as an egalitarian, but it's the way things are.
If you want to increase your chances of having a good experience, then CH. That doesn't mean if you choose DE or FR (or Pratteln) it's going to be hell.
again, he said his net pay (pay after taxes) would be the same in both cases. so it is not a deciding factor.
Hi J,
Your question as to where you should be living is actually comprising many fundamental questions. I.e., for how long are you planning to stay around Basel? Is it for 3 years only, or are you planning for a long term stay and willing to invest in speaking German as well? The answer may have a big impact on where you want to live. Also, what are your expectations on housing or living area? Are you looking for a free standing villa in a green village, or are you looking for a 200 square meter appartment uptown? Do you find it important that your kids may be able to play with kids from the English-speaking international community (and have to say goodbye every 3 months to one or two kids whose parents move on to Dubai or Shanghai), or do you want them to play with the local kids in Swiss german (and you will never be able to really understand them once they mastered the Schwytzertuuts)?
Our kids do very well in the Swiss school system. Being foreigners with no German skills at all when we arrived, they received 2-4hours/wk German lessons in kindergarten and even in primary school that is a possibility that is integrated in the school system. However, my kids do not need that anymore and their mastering of the language is equalt to that of their "native" Swiss freinds. I do not know how this is in DE.
Secondly, but equally important, is your salary really going to be matched on netto base, and is the difference in cost of living accounted for? In my view, you need much higher netto salaries here in CH in order to keep the same standard of living. After taxes, the biggest impact on your salary are Health Insurance (semi-private insurance for us 6 it is CHF1300/month), and rent (CHF2500/month). In DE this is really much lower, and therefore with the same "netto" salary you may even have much more to spend when going to DE. However, with the same bruto salary, you may end up moving to CH, indeed because of the lower taxes. In DE, you will get lower taxed depending on the number of kids (I do not know the actual impact on your income), and in CH you will get "Childmoney" which is approximately CHF 220/child/month (quite substantial when you have 4 kids like me).
My wife and I, and our 3 (now 4) kids moved from the EU into the Basel area 3 years ago. We intend to stay here for at least another 5 years, meaning that we wanted to raise our kids here in the local surroundings, speaking Swissgerman with their friends who live just around the corner, and going to the local Swiss school with the same friends. Therefore we moved to Baselland, which has much lower taxes than the city of Basel (Baselstadt), which saves us approximately CHF10'000/year. Most villages surrounding Baselstadt are actually in Baselland, but still within 20 minutes commuting (by car) from Weil am Rhein. We actually do a lot of our grocery in Weil am Rhein. In Baselland, almost 40% of the inhabitants is non-Swiss. Maybe that explains why we find most people in Baselland (we live very near to Baselstadt) very open to us.
From quality of life point of view, the differences between CH and DE are really focussing on people (German small village people versus Basel Swiss city people versus Baselland Swiss village people), because hiking, sports, theatre, etc is all very accessible from either Weil am Rhein or Baselstadt/Baselland. We find the German people around Weil am rhein difficult to access. All our Swiss friends live in Baselstadt/Baselland and are quite open to us. Of course it helps a lot that we speak German. We buy the large quantities (milk, bread) in Germany, the quality food stuff in France, and the rest in the local Migros in CH. This is how we can get the best of the 3 countries. We ski in the Black Forest (DE) with the occasional trip to the Swiss alps (Soerenberg, Davos), after dismissing the Vosges (French mountains) because I don't want my kids to have to learn yet another language (our own, high German, swiss German). They will be taught French in the 5th grade anyway (Swiss school system here).
To be very clear, for a family of 2 adults and 2 kids, my estimates would be that you could live relatively comfortably in Baselland for a total of CHF120'000/year (CHF10'000/month). After taxes and with childmoney this still leaves you with CHF7500/month. A nice 3-bedroom appartment in Baselland will set you back another CHF2500/month, and health insurance also CHF1000/month. Than remain CHF4000/month to do your shopping (for us approximately CHF1000/month), insure and maintain your car and buy benzine, pay for an internet connection and phones, pay for skirent and lift cards, and save a bit. As mentioned, living in DE will have the biggest impact on taxes, health insurance and rent. The other costs are almost the same.
KR,
Henk
I think some of the differences between the two options are being slightly exaggerated here.
Walking over the border, I really don't see this massive gulf in housing, quality of life, English-language ability, friendliness, mentality, etc which allegedly suddenly appears as you go through the customs post at Weil-Friedlingen. Most of these arguments are based on the Swiss "average" versus the German "average", or comparing Basel to "Germany" as a whole - but nice areas of Weil am Rhein and nice areas of Basel have more in common with each other than either have with Geneva or Frankfurt.
The factors which do change really significantly at the border are childcare, schooling, rent and taxes, so I'd base your decision around those - the other differences are minor in comparison, if they exist at all. Whichever you pick, the benefits of the other are on your doorstep.
strangely, I always do - as soon as you get into Germany, it hits you in the face - and Weil is no exception there: the roads aren't as well maintained, there are more poor people in the streets, everything's a tad dirtier, the buildings are falling apart, lots of SAT-dishes (because there's no cable infrastructure and because SAT is free) on the roofs, lots of cheap (as in dingy) food places. Considering the fact that the South of Germany is actually the richest part of it, I don't know what that says about the country as a whole.
Just compare the people shopping in Aldi and Lidl in Germany to those shopping in Aldi and Lidl in Switzerland - Germany has a massively higher number of social cases and working poor than Switzerland. That fact alone already tells you that the standard of living there is significantly lower than here. I mean, it still might be higher than in most other places on the planet, but the OP was given a choice - and as such, I really wouldn't know why you'd live in Germany, rather than in Switzerland.
Peter
I can only disagree again. The OP said he gets the same money. We all know that salaries in CH are higher than in Germany... so you could have a great life there.
I'll give you one simple example: My parents have a lovely, very well maintained single standing one family house. Don't know exactly, but definitely 2-300 sqm living space, a massive garden around it... As you can reach Luxembourg city within half an hour, it is in a very preferred location. The house is worth about 300k EUR.
I rent a nice 3.5 room apartment which is in a preferred location within half an hour from the center of Zurich. I rent it because I could not possibly buy it at easily 1.2 - 1.5 Mil CHF. And I do not even dream of the houses here.
In short: With a decent salary, you can relatively easily afford a nice house in Germany. There is no way I will do that in Switzerland. For me it does not matter, but if I had a family of four, I would consider that a very large part of the living standard. People continuously discuss taxes here - taxes do not matter as much as affordability unless you earn Millions a year.
P.S: Not sure what you see at your Swiss Aldi, but here in Zurich it has the exact same clientele as in Germany. Langstrasse does not have nicer junkies than Frankfurt either.
sure, if you ignore the people around you.
Hi there,
I am afraid you have not thought this through:
Yes, one can buy a beautiful single standing house near Luxembourg city for Eur300k(CHF450k). A similar house in Weil am Rhein is starting from the same price up.
However, a similar house in Baselstadt does not exist, as a single standing house in a city is really not to be expected. Therefore, one cannot compare it. If you want to buy a house in Baselstadt, the criteria change from single standing house to "Einfamilienhaus" which in every city usually means a "Reiheneinfamilienhaus", i.o.w., the middle of a row. Then the first house is something like this ; which is not too bad for the price of CHF 670k, but I would never want my kids to grow up in this neighbourhood.
If one goes to Baselland, the first villages to look for are Oberwil, Allschwil, Binningen, Botmingen, etc. Go to Comparis.ch and do the comparison, and you will see that there actually are single standing houses available, much nicer than the cheap houses in Weil am Rhein, but at a cost: CHF 750k.
The price difference with Weil am Rhein reflect the much lower taxes in CH versus DE, the much better construction of the houses in general in CH vs DE, the much much nicer surroundings in CH vs DE (of course this is just my opinion....), and the fact that in DE there is just a larger variability of the houses available. However, really comparable houses in Weil am Rhein are also starting at prices of EUR 495k (CHF750k).
The latter reflects that house owners in Weil am Rhein and in the Basel area (Baselbiet) are of course aware that most people who can buy a house here, are looking across borders and need to make the same decisions as the OP...
Of course, when you go 30-40 minutes outside Basel, prices are a little better for a single standing house : CHF 600k (EUR 400k), which is quite close to your estimates of your parents' house. I assume you were just not aware that it is really possible to buy a house in Switzerland....
So, it all depends on what one really wants.
In the "renting arena" things are similar, and with the above mentioned links one can search for him/herself
First of all: Great post.
Second: I do not live in Basel, I live in the Höfe district of Schwyz. Go and find me a nice house for 600k CHF here please
The school systems are not that different. Matura and Abitur are quite the same level (at least the ones I know: German, and even the French Leistungskurs in Germany is not that easy). And don't base any special case on PISA, as a general trend by countries never ever matches a particular experience, that is the nature of statistics.
I shouldn't say that but I would choose German Gymnasium. For academicly interested students, French school is the thing if you choose it carefully. Or you can come to my classes, I do a pretty decent job
Thanks!
This looks nice..... CHF 620k.
Note that brokers get 5% of the price. So, let me know if you decide to move, right
I do not know anything about the German system, because I never looked into it. We do have experience with the Baselland school system.
In my opinion, in the Basel region, the Swiss schools are relatively good. One of the issues here is that primary and secondary schools do not educate all kids to the level where they can attend the Swiss Gymnasium. And the Gymnasium is the only realistic education for a University study.
This is why a lot of Swiss kids actually go to school on Saturday mornings in order to get educated up to the Gymnasium level. This education is either being payed by their parents, or in some Kantons by the Kanton (i.e., offered for free). It is an issue of high debate, because the system does not give every kid a fair chance to higher education.
Now follows some theoretical philosophical reflection of mine: of course, with the Swiss so terribly democratic, the majority of Swiss people does not understand why anybody should attend university, and therefore it is very unlikely that things will change, because the majority of Swiss will not want to spend money to a little bit of extra education.
In other words, my wife and I are prepared to help our kids through school, and make sure that - if our kids have the capacity - they will actually get the additional education to get to the Gymnasium. As mentioned, only if our kids have the capacity to do so.
In our region, it is common for most kids to be "screened" by the school psychologists (SPD). Usually, they will then be "cleared" (aka they are "normal"), which means that there are no excuses for bad performance.... . In my view, once kids are cleared by the SPD, they should actually be offered the education to achieve Gymnasium entrance level. Obviously, our region is not there yet.....
Regarding PISA results , I do think that it gives one a general idea of the situation, which indeed needs to be adjusted for invidual school achievements. However, the general idea should not be disregarded, as a lot of effort went into a good intercountry comparison . Note that 15y/o in Switzerland are doing generally better than their colleagues in the US, which are in turn better than in Germany and France. And all of these countries do worse than where I come from (NL). Whether one is satisfied with these "performances", indeed asks for an individual assessment regarding the child's capacities, wishes, the parents' pushing , and so forth. In the end, a lot of University studies have been harmonized between countries, limiting the discussion to "how to get to University" in DE, FR, and CH alike.
Weil is a bit vile (sorry for the pun), or at least parts of it are. There are far nicer places in the South of Germany, many of them within easy travelling distance of the Swiss border. But just as everywhere else, the nicer the place, the more it's going to cost to buy any real estate there. And also remember that the places that look smartest aren't always the best places to live. Germany as a whole may create the impression of being more liberal than Switzerland, but Conservative people with conservative attitudes in the squeaky clean villas of rich German villages aren't any more liberal or open than their equivalents in Switzerland. I've lived there and seen it.
Maybe for the OP's sake you can provide some examples? I think that is more helpful than just the statement alone.
Do you mean you are looking for an example of a place in Germany that is nicer than Weil? May I suggest using a map and a pin? If you hit Hoyerswerda then forget that and try again.
Or what do you mean by nice? If you're looking for a squeaky villa in a conservative neighbourhood with gnomes in the garden then any of the villages along the foot of the Black Forest will do. Try Badenweiler for example. If you're looking for a place that knows about the good life and has a laid back atmosphere then try Freiburg.