You can of course upgrade, but you can't claim all of what you spent back.
Yes, what you are renovating should be old and/or broken and you are changing like for like, ie, 20 year old kitchen plus you are replacing regular taps for regular taps, not regular taps for gold plated ones.
Not really. But you are in business and I'm guessing are dealing with million franc +++ properties.
I guess you have to choose well the house/project you want to get involved with. Our house is over 20 years old and has none of those issues.
We could (and will eventually) change out kitchen and the bathrooms and I can guarantee you the price will not even touch 500K. In fact, it would be foolish for me to spend that kind of money on our property.
I still think it's not right to say a 5 year old house will need that kind of money spent on it or that anyone should think that you need 500K to get the property up and running(??). If it does, it's a lemon and you shouldn't have bought it the first place. Get it back on the market, cross fingers & walk away!
Again, as always, it is about location. location. location. There are still some amazing bargains to be had in some regions - and if you buy a really old house, with 90cm thick stone walls and sound timbers- then you are unlikely to suddenly have damp problems, etc. You might even be lucky enough to get a lovely garden and some land- but you have to research areas. Prices will be much much much lower- and so will the eventual re-sale value of course. Our house for instance is in extremely good nick and dates from 1587- loads of space, ginormous volumes and potential, land - and cheap as pommes frites compared to Zurich, Geneva Riviera or even Neuchatel. Depends what you want - horses and courses, etc. The final differential will be about the same though.
Also here the Commune is very easy and will rarely object - and no problem with neighbours. But with electrics, plumbing, heating everything has to be done according to regs.
You are focusing too much on the kitchen
That's actually something people underestimate. Yes, of course you can have a great home that is 5 years old and not needing repairs. Unfortunatelly, things get more complicated than that. We prize ourselves here to use really good hand work and materials, but we still get tough problems showing up after 2 years. Sometimes it's really hard to find out why those problems happen and how to solve them, and it's not even because of negligence or bad work/materials.
I don't want to scare anyone with the number I gave. But people should be aware that most houses for sale on the market here in Zürich will need repairs, some sooner than later. And when you add up things such as new insulation and roof, the price is quite near that.
That's why insurance is very important, and DIY projects might ruin that.
I don't understand. You say that we shouldn't buy houses more than five years old because they'll need work doing on them but everyone keeps droning on about the fantastic quality of Swiss houses.
I had a house in the U.K. that was seen as bad quality and was twenty-five years old. There was nothing wrong with it and nothing needed spending on it apart from a lick of paint on the internal walls.
I put in a better kitchen because I wanted to, not because it needed it.
So which is it? Swiss houses are badly built or you're not quite as informed as you think you are?
Not totally sure if this post is simply trying to provoke anger or not.
Firstly I didn't say you shouldn’t buy houses more than 5 years old. I said be aware you might need to repair them. The concrete cracks WILL show. No mater the material quality, construction quality, or geographical point of planet Earth it was made. It’s in the nature of concrete. When those cracks are bigger than X, though, it’s when you need to worry.
I never went waving a flag that Swiss houses are better or worse than any other nationality house. You are probably confusing me with someone else.
Thirdly, your 25 year old house might have been fine, might have not been fine. What you see outside might not be what you don't see under, inside and over the house. I can't go into detail because a) I have no idea what your house was b) I have no reason to do it.
Thirdly, if you guys go back to my posts, I didn't mean you will have to spend 500k on a kitchen. Or that you NEED to get a new kitchen. What I gave was an example of a hypothetical house being bought, the buyer thinking he only needs to get a new kitchen, and ends up finding he needs to do way more than that.
Lastly, there are badly built Swiss houses, there are good built Swiss houses. And I never played the all knowing architecture goddess in this forum. I provided advice according to my own knowledge limitations. If you want specific, law based, dossier full, plan added and detailed studied information that applies to your specific case, you are free to come by the office and pay for the information you are looking for. We have specialists that work accordingly to your needs.
Otherwise, the information I provide is meant to help people in this forum, not to boast 100% truths.
I have a friend who is a DIY enthusiast in Geneva. He started work on his house 8 years ago he has not officially finished for a couple of reasons,
It's now bigger than allowed on the Plot. Kitchen Extension, Non habital space now has windows, that sort of thing.
Plumbing & Electrics done himself.
2 flats turned back into 1 house.
Every 2 years they write to ask if they can inspect to revalue, he tells them he has not finished.
OK, I didn't intend to start a fight! But, in any case, we moved into our current flat/house (rented) which was built in 1998, so it's what, 13 years old. I think if we had bought it we would be looking at certain expenses, mainly remodeling, such as: replacing the tiled floors with wood, modifying the kitchen (which is about big enough for Ken and Barbie), modifying the electrical system (segregating and adding various circuits - I don't like all the kitchen sockets and living area sockets being wired as 2 parallel/series circuits from one breaker and (personal opinion) I hate sockets half way up the wall), replaced the outdoor flooring on the balconies, added a sink/tap/brewing facilities in the cellar, electric roller shutters, LAN. Bathroom is OK-ish, but there's a crack in the sink and the taps have suffered from historical application of abrasive cleaning products.
I guess all of that would add up to a fair amount of money, though I am at a loss as to how much, but I would hope to God it would be less than 500kCHF. But, this again depends how much you can do yourself (back on track now) without getting into hot water, either now or in the future. This was the purpose of my original post !
I just read on www.haus-forum.ch about a guy who asked for a quote from an electrician. He got the quote and a bill for 1,500CHF (10 hours work) ! So, that fact goes on the watch-list :-)
As for quality, Switzerland is no better/worse than anywhere else. There are cowboys around; I know people who have experience this.
Cheers,
Chris
Really old houses made out of stone are usually very sound. If the walls and timbers have survived several hundreds of years- they are unlikely to suddenly 'go'. Mind you, just in case, we got our wonderful roof beams, trusses and all timber treated before we moved- so they will do another 500 years.
So really, your point it to make people aware to look carefully at structural integrity of the house and add more money than they have previously thought to their budget for renovation work. If that's what you are saying I don't disagree with you.
You are not wrong to point out things that need to be looked at carefully before you buy the house, roof, damp, cracks, etc. But for me this is very much a separate issue to "renovations". Everyone needs to look at that stuff even if they have no plans to renovate.
The very first thing we looked at on out 20+ year old house was the roof, then damp, etc, etc. We knew the balcony needed work. But we didn't see the full extent of the work needed until later. So in that sense you are very much correct. There are things that you won't see until you start detailing the work. So again, I don't think you are wrong to point out the fact that things WILL cost more than you anticipate.
Anyway, I don't think your number is "scary", but it very much depends on the property. For some properties it might be a bargain. For my property 500K would be a joke. But I guess I don't know who "all your clients" are, nor what kinds of properties they are buying.
Like I said earlier, we did some DIY electrical work and it has been certified by an electrician that is designated by the canton of Vaud to do these certifications. Properly executed DIY work won't ruin your insurance. Bad DIY work that doesn't comply with regulations and that doesn't have the proper permissions and certifications (if required) can ruin the insurance and/or re-sale value.
And I imagine that is why the OP is asking about this stuff.
Absolute must, the relationship you have with your Bauumpt (Building inspector at the Germainde) is directly proportional to the amount of headaches, cost and sleepless nights you will have long term. Ours saved us a lot by answering a lot of silly questions.
Absolute must, getting the invoices worded correctly and sometimes direct negotiation with the tax man allowed us to claim 50% of an extension which is technically not allowed.
Hey, I undercharged you!!
To the OP, if you are really serious about this and it is a major renovation you are thinking about, organise a renovation evening social event, put your money on the bar, it will be the best 1,000 chuffs or so you ever spent. This subject has been discussed a multitude of times and there are is lot of information still not revealed in all the posts.
Ok, miniMia, I believe I found the problem!
You see, renovations in my work include usually things like structure fixing, roof changing, new insulation. It's not just buying a new kitchen or painting walls
Always the language barrier getting into the way!
No one said that you said think anyone needs to spend 500K on a kitchen. But you did write that you inform all of your clients that they need 500K to get a house up and running EVEN if you just want to change the kitchen. & yes, I'm smart enough to know that you are talking about things other than just the cabinets & appliances.
I'm sorry, but I take exception to that. In fact, to spent that kind of money no most properties is stupid. But hey, I don't know who your clients are nor what kind of properties they are buying. I know that the ones I was looking at in no way shape or form would justify spending that kind of money on them.
The big unknown in that equation is, why do you want to buy the house in the first place?
Do you want to keep it for a couple of years and then sell it on for a profit? Thane you've got to work by the regulations because anything that is wrong will diminish the value.
Or do you want to stay in that house yourself for virtually forever (or at least until the next major renovation), in which case you might be able to live with certain compromises that don't bother you.
No. It's absolutely not a language barrier. I know what "renovations" entails. But thanks for clarifying.
I never said it was "just painting & putting in a new kitchen". There are things we need to renovate including replacing the balcony. That's not a paint job.
And again, to spend 500K what we need to renovate on our house would be just plain stupid.
If you have a 5 year old house that has damp issues, insulations issues, roof issues, walk away from that house.
Again if you buy a really good quality old house, posh kitchens are a bonus, but just don't matter really. Quality, space, character and land are becoming more important as getting rarer.
If I won the Lottery - I'd defo turn the integral barn into a fabulous 'Grand Design' - but not important.
All the floor work you can do yourself. Just be very very careful if you have under floor heating. All the tile work you can do yourself. You can change the bathroom fixtures yourself, especially if you don't have move them. You'll have to check if you want to move a wall to make the kitchen bigger. If you just have to move the island out (like in my kitchen) it's no problem to do that.
You can move the sockets down the wall, and then get the work certified. But I wouldn't touch the other electrical stuff with a 10 foot pole. But that's me!
The other stuff I don't know. But changing the floors and the bathrooms yourself is already going to save a lot of money.
With Zug house prices no DIY is coming near our home project. We have top notch fittings and fixtures that are still perfect 15 years later. A kitchen where all the cupboards still work every tile and the bathroom fittings are installed with precision. No gaps or shoddy work anywhere. All the doors still close and nothing leaks. Brilliant really.
I would expect leaks and things on new builds back in Oz but here. I would be worried about a 5 year old house with damp, insulation and roof issues too.
Well there's an important issues: do you need to renovate or do you want to renovate?
Sounds to me that the OP wants to more than he needs to.
How much is X and how long does it take to get to x, and what does one do when concrete cracks like this?
I never knew it was as fragile as you seem to be suggesting.
I've got money invested in a concrete framed place so this isn't just a passing interest.
Not you specifically but it has been mentioned on this forum on numerous occasions.
It was fine. You'll have to take my word for it.
I'm not trying to provoke an angry response from you but you did suggest that bad problems can show up after two years. Was this rare or very rare or 50/50?
You seem to be scare-mongering a bit. My sister lives in a house that was built before the lady below was Queen of England - that's a bit more than five years, or one hundred years, or five-hundred years. It's still standing.
If Swiss houses are as bad as seem to suggest, why are they so expensive and why do we need architects?
This guy had no experience at all but built his own house out of nothing.
I bet it's still standing in one hundred years.
I'm having a bit of a rant as the people that did our place did, on the whole, such a bad job that I could have done better myself with no experience. In fact I did have to sort out their problems.
So, for all those into DIY, as long as you conform to the regulations and have confidence in your work, go for it.