The original poster thought he'd get someone else to do his project work for him, but English-speakers in Switzerland are unlikely to know anything about the Swiss schools system - especially what it's like for a 12-year old. I have no idea... (except that the school system here has a lot going for it.)
Talking to me genius? I've only pointed out two glaring errors.
I agree. One of my good friends from high school went to John Hopkins University (one of the best on the East Coast of the US). After graduating with a BA from there she is now pursuing an MA in nursing. A nurse in the US typically makes in excess, ignoring PPP, of 100.000 CHF a year ($80k). If this number is wrong, sorry -- from the NYT.
I need to respond to you English posters, and maybe the OP will find this interesting (probably not). I first learned about the Swiss schooling system 2-3 years ago, while I was studying in the UK. One of the main instructors at my school told me that this was the norm in the UK in the past, but that it had been phased out in most localities. He felt that it was terrible, as it prejudged someone at the age of 11 to 13. It determined what they would be capable of doing for the rest of their lives, before they were able to determine what they could or could not do themselves, and before they realized the full consequences of their actions. I fully agree with this criticism -- and it is the biggest difference between those at this age in the US and Switzerland.
Beyond this, I met a Swede in London. I explained to him how I thought the system here was great -- it basically guaranteed a base skill for everyone in Switzerland. However, he proceeded by asking what that would do to those entering from the outside. I didn't really know what to say at the time... now I do -- it is terrible. And it does not guarantee better educated individuals, nor does it guarantee better services. It also limits the ability of individuals to succeed -- to do the best that they can.
First, a note to Midschool Kid: please drop me an MP. My girl is a local school kid (12 yrs), she speaks and write english fluently and will be happy to correspond with you to tell you how it is. Please remember not to leave your personal contacts on the board for safety reason.
Now, for the topic:
I am sorry, Jojo, that you took offense. As you quote - I say Smart and Successful people, not "stupid and uneducated", did I??? in what way was I being derogatory to nurses - a highly respectable, respected albeit poorly paid profession??? I am curious about your masters - do you practice still as a nurse? what are your subjects - are you today teaching in Swiss University? that sounds fantastic, congratulations. Please tell us more.
I've seen what this school system does to the outsiders who can speak the language and adapt: it raises the standard. Unfortunately, no school system is ever designed for the outsiders: it must work for the locals... and this one is producing a good level of education...
Adaptation is always the hardest part of an expat life, but also the most interesting and where personal growth can really happen. Let's not forget that we are all here to learn through contact, not to contemplate how diversity is stupid.
Hi
apologies accpeted. I have a masters in Nursing from Uk university and in a non nursing subject (geography). I work as a clinical nurse specialist, part of this job entails teaching which I do on a part time basis at a scottish university as well as designing and running courses for local staff. I would like to teach in switzerland but not sure if I can.
I have 2 kids and will be moving to switzerland this summer. I have just written of to local schools asking exactly the type of questions as the midschool kid has been asking so i`ll let you know what I find out. you could also contact a school directly or get an adult eg mum, to do it! here is a list of public schools in lausanne inn the french speaking part http://www.web-vd.ch/vd_dgeo/etablis...e&_=rechercher
jo
This is, in my opinion, a stereotype. The Swiss are simply educated in languages in a way that most children in English-speaking countries are not. Even with that, their language abilities are not always fantastic. I know quite a few people who have gone through the Gymnasium track, and, despite having six years of English, cannot speak or understand it at all.
Beyond that, I would say most schooling outside of the Gymnasium / University track does not necessarily qualifiy as "raising the standards." Instead, it seems to be lowering the standards and predetermining the future of quite a few children. How does doing an apprenticeship in a book shop or in a garage at age of 16 raise educational standards? Nevermind that children here start schooling 1-2 years later than in the US.
Either way, I believe that our objection is to the fact that children have their lives predetermined so early in life -- not necessarily that the quality of schooling is low. Nobody here would claim that Gymnasiums do not provide excellent education, because they do. We would, however, ask about the others, those that are not allowed to attend.
That simply wasn't the case (when GB had an 11+ system) - it's true that the 'higher achievers' went to the grammar school but there was no bar to anyone getting into university from a comprehensive. The entry requirement to University for grammar and comprehensive was the same - good 'A' level grades. As I understand it, in the Swiss system the course that you get set on around age 12/13 determines whether or not it's even going to be possible to get to university.
Grammar schools tended to have better average grades because they got the people who had the better 11+ results in their intake but plenty of comprehensives had a great educational record too.
People continue to seek out certain schools for their kids because they have better academic records .. a perfectly normal and natural thing for a parent to do in my opinion. After all, you want to give your child every possible advantage.
Gav
With the addendum that anyone over 25 can actually attend university (with the exception of med school) regardless of prior schooling curriculum.
There are some conditions to it, but it is totally feasible. I know someone who did it and went all the way to PhD.
I don't think that there's ever going to be a problem filling vacancies because you've offered kids the possibilities to maximise their personal potentials through the education system and your highly qualified,high achieving young population no longer want to job x, y or z. There will always be varying levels of academic achievement and personal ambition.
In fact, I'd argue that the Swiss system has manifestly failed in that respect since huge numbers of jobs at the bottom and top end of Swiss society are done by foreigners.
OK, at the bottom end it's because people feel certain types of jobs are 'below' them somehow and much the same has happened in other rich countries too where it's easy to get other work or the social security system is good. But the lack of top-end talent should worry all Swiss people. Look at the number of skilled degree level professionals that are brought in to Switzerland to fill in high-paying top level jobs.
It's not because there is a booming and expanding economy (eg. London), it's because simply not enough people are educated well enough to do them in Switzerland. When I was working in a Swiss office I was the only person in my team with a degree-level education. In the same sort of environment in the UK or Ireland, just about everyone would have had a university education.
Lots of people were doing 3-4 year part time diplomas to try to better their career prospects but this entailed giving up just about every Saturday for years and even then they weren't going to see an immediate payback in the form of more money or a better job. Whilst I admired their dedication it would have been much better for them to have had that qualification at the start of their careers and after a few years of relatively carefree studying in a university environment.
Gav
But doesn't that require a very expensive and intensive several years at matura (I may have the name wrong...) first?
No. The requirements are:
- earlier admission schedule (typically January as opposed to June)
- Swiss national or holder of work permit for at least 5 years
- at least three years full time employment history (apprenticeships excluded)
Each faculty has a document detailing the more specific requirements they might have.
Oh, and being at least 25 by September 1st prior to your application.
Do you really think that starting studying for university entry at the age of 25, when you would normally be trying to build your career or maybe be getting married or even starting a family, is going to be feasible for average people?
Anyone can enter university at any age in the UK too but you don't get many people going in as full-time mature students for the simple reason that you can't just jack in your (adult) life for 3-4 years to study unless you have some pretty solid financial backing from somewhere else.
Doing full time study between 18-21 (or maybe a bit later) and then starting a career makes much more sense.
Gav
I am in Lausanne, I may be able to help you answer some of the ?? you have. However, it will be hard for your 2 to get in to public school if they don't speak french... Drop me a line! good luck.
Well - build a career, yes, but IMO "career building" is far more common amongst university graduates. I had a buddy in university who used to be a fireman at the airport - what sort of "career building" would there be in such a field? Then again - at 25 you are (or should be) mature enough to decide whether you want to go back to school or dedicate fully to having a family. Looking around me I get a feeling that even university grads aren't that keen on starting a family at 25.
Well, yes, but then there are always solutions, part-time jobs etc - there are also young students who have to get along all by themselves without much support from the family as well.
Indeed - but the solid financial backing argument remains just as valid there
My point is that if you are really willing to do it - it can be done. Yes, it is difficult and doesn't probably make "optimal" sense. But then again, I've seen a constant 35-40% dropout ratio in the first year of my faculty - so a matura and the "normal" curriculum aren't necessarily a recipe for success either.
Ok Nick and Gav, maybe spoke before engaging brain, had a long boozy Sunday lunch and tried to throw a spanner in the works. I stand corrected.
But having said that the old Grammar and Comp system for a form of early streaming and I’m sure (though not positive) that the university entrants was always heavily weighted towards the Grammar school pupils.
Anyway, back onto topic, my boys are at the local schools here, the oldest one is 13 and in first year of secondary in the General (middle) section (his poor French and German blocked his path to pre Gym) However, he has been told that his grades so far are this academic year are good enough to allow him to transfer over to pre Gym for the second year of secondary (providing that he keeps up the grades). So all is not lost in that regard.
My big complaint which I bought up recently is the lack of subjects on offer to secondary pupils. No Chemistry, no Physics, no Drama, and sports are confined to the Gymnasium. I really don’t think that the children are being pushed enough.
We leave here in a 2/3 years and so hope that they will have attained a level of education that will get them into a college to follow either A levels or an IB.
Nick.
I'm going to comment a bit on that based on my recollections. It would indeed seem that if you "choose" at age 13 not to go to high school and not have a baccalaureate/matura what have you, you are barred from university access.
However, at least as I recall it, access to high school / commerce school / whatever else was pretty much based on your pupil performance. Nobody barred you from attending high school for instance, but if you didn't fare well in the "orientation cycle" as it's called around here, odds were rather high that you wouldn't make it past your first high school year anyhow - so as a result you were also encouraged to look at other alternatives.
All in all it wasn't an "arbitrary choice" as it is now often portrayed but more often than not a choice driven by your odds of actually getting through high school based on your personal aptitudes.
I'm sorry, but at the age of 13, many students are certainly not mature enough to decide what path they want the rest of their life to take.
It is a relatively arbitrary choice, when you consider the age and how personal circumstances can and do impact children of this age. It sets kids up for failure, doesn't have them reach as high as they can - after all, they might be reaching up and could easily grab what they want, if it weren't for the foot on the head holding them back, telling them they're not good enough. Or that they weren't when they were 13.
Well let me rephrase this - if for the three years of mid school you were barely at passing level or indeed below, and considering high school is even more demanding in terms of both fields of study and requirements - do you not think odds are low that you'd actually be able to graduate?
Again - nobody asks children to make a choice (meaning an exclusive irreversible choice)! And if they wish to apply to high school - there's no one holding a boot over their heads! Or at least that's how it was when I did it...
I completely disagree. People barely pass/fail for different reasons. If we are talking about a 13 year old kid - stresses at home, such as parental divorce, can play a huge factor in performance. So can being bullied in school, bored in school, etc.
Children are asked to make a choice - or it is made for them - that is extremely difficult to reverse. Sure, not irreversible. But easy, simple or straightforward? No, definitely not. And there is a boot on the head of children who are branded. If you don't see that or believe that, then perhaps you're wearing blinders?
Hi,
my daughter will be almost 13 when we arrive and I do have grave concerns about all this. However hopefully as parents we will be able to give her the support and encouragement to do well. However i do think streaming occurs too early, and for lots of reasons children may not pass or fail. In the UK we do have the opportunity to go back later and start again and many of my colleagues ie. nurses are late starters who have done very well being in their now chosen careers and reached senior management level in the NHS. they are more focused and motivated than younger students. I also have a friend , ex ski bum and grave yard digger when I met him 20 years ago, no qualifications after school, now about to finish his PhD, so at least here in the Uk it can be done, in switzerland not so sure. I don`t think kids should be written off at this age and with a younger child who does struggle a bit i am worried however i think we will kepp our options open and ? go private if things do not work out.
jo
Quite possible. But many of these factors can be alleviated (i think) if proper attention is paid to them. In my days at least, weekly reports on behaviour and performance were made to parents. I agree that stresses at home can have an unavoidable influence - but if the parent signs off the "the pupil is bored / the pupil didn't do his homework/etc" type information without looking any further into it, then I think the blame lies not only with the system.
Based on my recollection, there were quite some ways of either rejoining high school from fachhochschule or going through an extra year to get a matura. To me it looked pretty easy (even at that time).
Probably so...