If they want to live like that, fine it's their choice.
But it would NEVER be mine.
Cooking and eating are the simplest enjoyable things I know of, or can imagine, if I can't even do that, then there is simply no point in going on.
Even a deaf, dumb, and blind person can do and enjoy these things.
Watching others live their lives is perhaps enough for some people (witness the popularity of reality TV), however it certainly is nothing for me.
Tom
First, do you believe that an individual has (should have) the right to decide when to end his or her life. And then under what circumstances, methods and so on.
Second, is a volunteer organization like EXIT the way to go?
I don't know the answer to either for myself.....i guess i need to think on it and collect some info.
I think while a person should have a choice to not want to live because he cannot feed himself, I am not putting it down, it is good to maybe think we would accept a lot more if there was not this push for what dignity is, how it is portrayed, etc. We are influenced by this, by our experiences with family who went through hell and it scarred us. We are also influenced if we think it is our fault that we are in such a deteriorated state. If I was negligent and did not take care of myself when I should have especially if diagnosed with something grave, maybe even contributed to how sad and indigestible the end is, I might want to die more than not. Now - I think we should think about motives, what drives us to feel as a burden, that our life lost all value..I think, personally, none of those reasons should make one feel like their life has no value any more. Maybe accepting we feel ashamed, angry, in pain, but not unworthy. I am not being prescriptive, I am being dialectic. I think for me, pain would be the only unmanageable thing to want to go early. But I know that is quite well taken care of, or is supposed to be. Just like EXIT, ideally, is supposed to be certain way.
Of course there is nothing undignified in caring for the infirm and elderly. I had to be totally looked after when I spent months in traction when I was young- and hated it of course. But I knew I had a life in front of me, and that I'd fight like crazy to recover from my injuries.
But for my mum, aged 90+, blind, in pain and totally incapable of walking or doing anything apart from sitting there drooling- but with all her mind intact- she truly hated it- even though she knew we all loved her. Even though we all told her she was valued just for being our mum and granny, my dad's wife. Who is anybody to decide for my amazing and wonderful mum what is undignified or not? Same for my poor MIL- whose life and dignity was robbed of her- and when she had made her views abundantly clear about what she would consider totally undignified. I shall leave this thread now as I am getting angry. Sorry.
Nobody here who thinks that EXIT plays a valuable rôle in allowing people to make that choice is trying to tell people who think it does not, that it should be thir choice. So why is it acceptable for those who think EXIT is not for them, to try and impose their decision on others???
theguardian.com
On a different theme, I think my mother would have wished to die long before her pancreatic cancer spread to her eyes (I knew her worst day had come when she put down her sewing needle for the last time) and she ultimately starved to death. She had a living will NTR, but at-home hospice care w/o fluid support etc. The human body is amazingly resilient - she "lived" at least a month longer than anyone expected, but w/o asking her I sensed if she had been left alone long enough she would have figured out a way. I don't think she "could" have joined something like EXIT due to my overpowering stepfather - wrong as that may sound.
My maternal grandmother had Lebensmüdigkeit (n) She was tired of living from age 90, but she had no real health issues that couldn't be treated with a bit of gentle medication. I think she too tried the starving approach, but could never resist when someone showed up with a home baked coconut custard pie and a pot of shrimp gumbo So her children, sisters and her nieces and nephews had the excuse to cook and LOSE at a game if Scrabble (because she ALWAYS won). I think she gave us all so much in her last 4 years, and died peacefully on her sleep. I don't think EXIT would have been a good option in her situation.
So maybe we are back to where it started - should choosing death BE a choice...
None of us asked to be born - everyone experiences roller-coaster phases - but the very nature of the human race is to survive. It seems strange to me that a good number seem to flippantly think they would trade it in when life takes a turn for the worse. The reality of this complex issue is likely to become more relevant as projections of life expectancy for those born in the last decade are reaching as high as 103 yrs. Life expectancy is just a number...but what constitutes "life" quality...and is society prepared to provide for this aging population medically but more important socially? I would hope so, although much evidence of elderly care/provision points to the contrary. This is yet more rambling, but in most every other life issue (important or otherwise - whom to marry/BLTG/what car to buy) humans like choice.
Something that hasn't been mentioned is the LEP - Liverpool End-of-life Pathway, where medical professionals make a decision not to resuscitate based on their assessment of life quality. EXIT for professional use The family is not always, or even usually involved or informed. Would you like to know that the family member you just lost, had been visiting for weeks in hospital perhaps, was on the LEP, but a man/woman in a white coat decided not to tell you, or assumed a colleague had. One lead consultant at Addenbrookes (Cambridge) was quoted as saying he wouldn't have wanted his father kept alive under a given set of circumstances. Maybe not, but I can guarantee he would have wanted to be informed.
On a lighter note...
I liked the idea of the generational centres they have started in Germany, where nursery/Krippe care and elderly housing occur side-by-side.
a podcast from CBC with a pretty honest discussion from medical professionals about the ethical issues associated with our loved ones, even ourselves.
A question: what kind of consequences does giving more options have on people? If creating new options is good until the new options create negative consequences for other people, can we think about what the consequences might be, both positive and negative?
I'm sorry Odile. I only see people promoting viewpoints. To me, making the decision is first whether you agree with the concept and second the organization.
I've actually read bits of the EXIT website, and if I'm thinking about the whole issue of self determined death, I have to think about the implementation.
To keep organizations like EXIT strong, one wants members to join when they're still relatively healthy to provide both funding and possible volunteers.
On EXIT's website, they describe themselves as a kind of insurance. Most insurance in Switzerland is not charity based, so I believe that some people could misinterpret EXIT as insurance.
But as it turns out I am not really ready to think about this. Perhaps a personal failing on my part. So I guess no, I won't join at this time. Perhaps the thread would have been better as a poll.
We all agree on avoiding unnecessary human suffering, it's been said here all over. The mission of EXIT is logical. Would I be a member? No.
I am thinking about consequences of implementation if it's on bigger scale as it is popularised to be. The shift in public perception of life worth and how it would slowly materialize if all of a sudden stats started growing in unexpected ways without us being able to change common perception fast enough. If society authorizes groups facilitating getting rid of the unfit (which will seem as exactly like this to some). How to efficiently quality control the discourse these groups run and the particular help a dying person would receive in order to make sure the organisations execute their purpose in an ethical and non manipulative way.
It takes decades of edu and experiences to be a good shrink or a lawyer. How to protect volunteers if things go wrong, for any party involved? What does an EXIT volunteer have to learn to be able to assess well, I have no idea, nor can I see the scenario of the interview and possible questionnaire in some standardized way in order to take just a volunteer on board without needing big amount of other supplementary back up training. In what..?
If suffering was to be completely avoided on a large scale, by legally assisting people to die, wouldn't medical society already assure this since it's their daily life..? They do. Just not openly. And they have more support, they just use a pretext they know well and that will protect them. It's a massive industry back up docs have in situations like these, yet they still are pushed to decide against a patient's wish, maybe that's what needs to be inspected. I think if there was a legal way doctors could register the wishes of a particular patient to end it, without the intermediary, isn't it better due to the docs training and knowing the patient, ideally. Who knows, because then again it might label a patient in a stigmatizing way to the rest of the medical community, insurance biz loss and abuse also comes to mind. I think it's a genuine question of legislature, quality health care, health insurance prism, rather than fixing it up with intermediary service that might get them into a very vulnerable position at the end I think. I'am a realist and a sceptical one. The legal bills will grow, so will the membership fees.
Whether people should have a choice, everybody said yes. Whether EXIT is the way to do it, not sure. Nobody is trying to offend anyone's belated relatives. I had mine going through hell, too, despite having 6 docs on family board and patients not depending on official health care. It's a complicated issue.
It's good to talk, exchange, re-consider, listen and re-consider again. And I have no problem with that at all, even if I disagree totally with the views expressed. What truly upset me was the intimation that my hugely intelligent mother, a modern woman before her time and an inspiration to so many, would have been influenced in her wishes by anyone, even pressured. You obviously did not know my amazing mother. 14 years in a wheel-chair, blind, bent, twisted, in pain- SHE hated it, and she didn't want it to continue- but she was trapped. Trapped by the love of my father, and the pseudo kindness of the staff. But it is NOT what SHE wanted- and I wish I had been there to help her- I got here too late. And it is still very raw inside.
But it's never enough time, there's always something else, and there are always things you want to do differently. And sometimes, even being there doesn't make a difference.