[German] Biggest learning issues?

Language Corner
41
It's eleven years now since I graduated with my degree in German (doesn't time fly??!) and I have to admit that I've certainly come along way since then. I almost never think about the grammar rules anymore (despite the fact that I know I should) I just sort of developed an ear for it over the time I've spent in Germany and Switzerland. The cheat sheet is excellent, and made me start to think about all those things again. I always hated adjectival endings, I never really got to grips with them, but somehow word order always came easily.

My written German is far from perfect, but show me perfection in the written form by anybody not using their native tongue and I'll be impressed. Luckily I don't have to use it often, just the odd letter or Email. Come to think of it, my English isn't perfect either!

I still stumble over some vocab, I sometimes simply forget the words! Luckily I can get around that using alternative words for things, and that only comes with time and practice.

I spent four years in Switzerland and never got my mouth around the dialect, I still struggle on the phone, but I never had problems making myself understood. The Swiss are great at acknowledging your efforts to communicate, and I always found them accomodating. Here in France it's a different matter, they are very unforgiving with their language!

Time and practice, and try not to worry too much about getting it wrong (easier said than done, I know!) as many of the native speakers won't even notice if you get the declension or case wrong when speaking.......

42
Several dialects take words from Latin...

...and also from French, from when Napoleon was in control. That's not the same though, because modern French, and likely Napoleonic French, differs from Norman French. There are also several geographical areas that have swapped hands over the centuries and are good "melting pots" for the French and German languages, the effects of which could ripple through the rest of the country given time. However much people might want to put rules and boundaries on language, it tends to evolve on its own according to its own whims.

Servus.

43
The one thing that gets me about the English and I have noticed it elsewhere to a lesser extent, is when it something does not get understood first time they repeat the sentence ableit somewhat LOUDER

44
This is a really good point--I am of the opinion that there are lots of people out there that could actually speak great German if people actually let them speak German.

I was more or less fluent after two years in Germany, but I think my German got a bit worse for a bit because I just got nervous and discouraged (and mad ) after people would constantly switch to English after they heard my accent.

I complained to all my colleagues, and they said not to be offended--that Swiss people think they are being nice by letting me speak my native language. My long-time English-speaking friends also have this problem, even one with hardly an accent. But yes, sometimes I do get a little offended when I hear "Shpeek you English?"

Even though I am perfectly fluent (yes, I have an accent, and search for words, and make mistakes, just like Swiss people do when they speak English) if I speak several hours with people, they will still sometimes say to me, "If there's something you don't understand, just tell me." Or sometimes people just assume I don't know it, and I have to "prove" that I do understand, and then endure the embarrassment of hearing "You have such good German [for an American]" or "Wow, you speak German!" Honestly!!

It took me a long time to learn that actually, my German was not half bad, but I needed to be just like Lou and stick to my guns! But it's not easy--lots of Swiss people, because of their own insecurities, maybe nationalism, a crazy love of languages, don't like to speak High German--sometimes I have to go through 10 exchanges before they break down! And of course, I made it know to my colleagues that I like to speak German.

Anyway, this is not a post for the "Complaints"--I only want to mention say that the combined environment of Schwiitzertüütsch and importance of English here makes it difficult (but not impossible) to speak German.

45
Wah - if it makes you feel any better, we were in Zürich a couple of weeks ago. Had missed the sign at the airport for where to go for the hotel shuttles. I finally persuaded (ok badgered) my husband, born and raised in Switzerland, to ask at the information desk where to find the shuttle. He asked, in his natively fluent, perfectly accented (well, if you are from the Bernese region anyway ) Swiss German, where to find the hotel shuttle. And the girl answered him back in High German (he says with an obvious Swiss accent - I had asked if maybe she was German, not Swiss). He came away grumbling about the Swiss and how patronizing they can be. He was really annoyed and continued to gtrumble for a while - I guess proving that even the Swiss get annoyed with the Swiss about some of the same things foreigners do.

I plan to doggedly persist with my attempts to speak German/Swiss German (or whatever muddled combination thereof comes out of my mouth) once we arrive as I do not want to qualify to post on the "how long have you been here without learning German" thread.

46
...and s...l...o...w...e...r with exaggerated mouth actions...

47
I am a native high German speaker, and it took me several months to understand what people around me were saying. In the beginning, I insisted that they spoke Swiss German. But most Swiss still fall into high German when talking to me. And when I try my Swiss German on them, they think it is hilarious. So, you should ask and remind us German speakers (regardless of dialect-ed or not) to speak German, even though English is easier and faster. When I am with English speakers who want to learn German, we normally mix languages. We have also done that at Diem's Friday gatherings or at the get-togethers I have organized.

As regards the Latin/German issue: I also found that learning Latin helped me to better understand German, mainly because I had just spoken but never analyzed it the way I had to analyze Latin, especially regarding the structure of the sentence and the use of the tenses.

A tiny bit of comfort: When Germans learn English, both the "th" and the "r" are really difficult. Well, when you start learning English, the first word combining these two wonderful sounds comes faster than you can count to 3. So, if someone is picky about your pronunciation, just imagine him breaking his tongue saying "three".

Also: Beim nächsten Mal sprechen wir Deulisch.

Idgie

48
The biggest problem is you really have to learn 2 languages at once. Hoch deutch if you plan to read ANYTHING and Swiss dialect if you want to speak with anyone. I tried just learning hoch deutch at first, but have recently seen even though swiss dialect is the equivelent to Texan in American English and viewed as sounding ignorant to a true German, most swiss either don't know hoch dueutsh, or refuse to speak it. So now I guess I have to learn that too. AYEEEEEE.

49
They know it because they are taught it in school (at least in the German part of Switzerland). But they prefer to speak Swiss German if possible (at least that is the case with my husband and his friends). But that being said, my husband's best friend has a girlfriend that is German, so they always speak German together, as she doesn't speak Swiss German. It really depends on the circumstances. In my experience they'll speak what's needed in order to speak with whoever is present in the room.

I understand the confusion of trying to assimilate both. I have repeatedly been advised though to learn the high German first, and then Swiss German.

50
Based on my experience.. they usually switch almost automatically when they ask you something & you answer in high german..

51
Well I don't think anyone in Wallis knows it. My wifes dad never understands me and when I ask my wife if a word I hear is real German or Swiss German half the time she doesn't know.

52
A rather direct question such as "Können Sie Hochdeutsch" (are you able to speak High German) might be one way to deal with someone who insists on speaking to you in Swiss German, even when they see you are having trouble with it. Such a direct question might imply stupidity on the part of the person who seems "unable" to converse with you in a language that they were supposed to have conducted their schooling in...

If you want to make the point even more you could go further and put the question into the negative - Können Sie kein Hochdeutsch? (are you unable to speak High German?)

I'd be really surprised if the second one wouldn't produce some shock and embarassment and result in an apology, but then again I'm lucky enough not to have had to use it

53
The same type of thing would happen to me over the years i spent in Japan, even though my Japanese pronuniation is not all that bad for a foreigner (or so i've been told). As a result, in situations in which my conversation partner's English was better than my Japanese, which was pretty often at the time (that might not be true any longer), i found little chance to practice, as the conversation would proceed in English (well, make that slow, overpronounced English vs. broken English). After all, my conversation partner (who now, by snubbing me, had slipped into the role of an "opponent"), wants to maximize his/her time in sought-after English conversation practice. Imagine years of this going on every day. Shortly before leaving that beautiful country, i was given some good advice for what to do in such cases:

Just reply with a broken "No" or "Nei(n)" that you do not speak English and continue with a question in some exotic language (Icelandic? Papua-New Guinean?). The conversation may end abruptly but in many (or more) cases, the conversation will proceed in a mix of Swiss German and Hochdeutsch.

54
Hi - was just looking for the 'cheat sheet' Anyone know where i can find it ?

55
[German Lessons, Zurich [Schools and Classes - No private Ads]](http://www.englishforum.ch/7749-post13.html)

cunningly, the other thread found bar this one when searching for "cheat sheet"

56
My mish-mash of German and English, I call "Deutlisch". I relish the fact that it sounds like the german word for "clear" in regards to writing or speaking.

In my opinion, we are all a little screwed, learning German in Switzerland. The article thing is just so damn elusive when surrounded by Swiss-German.

Plus, I'm an idiot and don't know how to access this cheat-sheet that you guys spoke of.

57
click on the link I posted just above yours.

Look for pretty things to click on. And have Adobe Reader installed

58
Many German words are similar (or even the same) as their English counterparts so it's relatively easy for an English speaker to learn German vocabulary in comparison to, say, Hungarian.

It's the little pieces of grammar that are confusing.

Zum Beispiel, die Schule, in der Schule

Wir gehen ins Kino, Wir gehen in die Kneipe.

der Schlussel, Ich kann den Schlussel nicht finden.

der Tisch, die Flasche steht auf dem Tisch

I'm not too clued up about dative and accusative cases, I tend to learn things mechanically eg after the word "auf" you say dem for male/neuter words and der for female words. You say zur for female words (zur Post) and zum for male/neuter (zum Hotel).

When learning a foreign language you learn things about your own language that you took for granted previously.

For example, the word "when" in English can refer to past or future.

When I was a child.

When I leave school.

In German, you have two separate terms - Als and Wenn (and Wann for expressions of time).

It's the same with the word "could". This covers two tenses, in German you need konnten or koennten.

Wuerden and Wurden are also confusing, took me ages to get the hang of that.

The number of words for "you" is also confusing for beginners. The word Ihr/Ihre is also difficult because it means so many things.

Spelling I found easy but plurals often involve some guesswork.

I still get confused with mich/mir, dich/dir, sie/ihr etc. (does this happen to Germans too?)

Seit is also strange for English speakers. Ich wohne seit drei Jahre hier. Here we are using present tense but in English it would be past tense, I have been living here for three years. Which is why many Germans say things like I am working in England since two years, when they speak English.

The German future tense is different in usage. In English if you ask somebody to do something for you right now, the might reply "I'll try" which is future, but something they will do right away. In German you stay in the present tense here, Ich versuche, and only use Ich werde..... for events some distance in the future.

59
Not meaning to be an ass, as I am far from perfect with German myself, but don't you need a plural dativ "n" at the end of Jahre? "Ich wohne seit drei Jahren hier." Could be wrong. Another one of those fun things in German -- plural dativ "n"!

At least they don't use the singular dativ "e" anymore (outside of the NZZ, older literature, and the few random phrases that have preserved it in everyday speech)...

60
Here's something I forgot to mention in my last rant.

They way the past tense is spoken can be totally different to the way it is written down.

Speaking - Ich habe meinen Vater gesehen

Writing - Ich sah meinen Vater.

Speaking - Er ist ........gegangen

Writing - Er ging..........

I have tried reading children's books to improve my German reading skills but this past tense business is a huge barrier to overcome