Indian doctor needs help about Non EU degree!

Family, Education, Health and Pets
21
My feeling is that you will need at least C1 if not C2. B2 is the minimum requirement just to get MEBEKO to register your qualifications (whenever they are registerable).

To be employed is an entirely different matter. You need C1 to be considered for employment (i.e., to do an interview at the least). You won't get far in an interview with B2 and employers know it.

Secondly, C1 as a general test is also increasingly scrutinised. This is because the vocabulary is not specialist vocabulary. Telc do specialist tests which included the medical vocabulary; this is different to the CEFR levels.

Depending on the field you want to practice, it may even be C2 level which will be likely impossible to pass in Switzerland.

22
drremo it sounds like you've also got a bit of chicken vs egg going on. The authorities won't recognize your qualifications until you've done 3 years as an assistant doctor, but most employers are probably reluctant to hire a non-Swiss doctor whose qualifications aren't yet recognized.

Sorry I don't have any helpful tips but I wish you the best.

23
Hi Peternieder,

Thanks for your advices

I guess also that you are right about it.

I assume it is practically better to have C1 and then apply for job.

I think, you are referring to Telc B2-C1 Medicine test, which is must for all non EU applying in Germany- as my friends have done it there. I am also looking for some sort of that course/ program before I appear for this exam. This Telc exam was not possible at Bern for test or such program, when I asked about it in May 2016. It can be done at Zürich at "Flying teachers institute":

Telc's B2-C1 Medicine test at Flying teachers institute at Zürich

I don't think C2 is so relevant or needed for medicine studies. As I am already having & reading all medical subjects (in German) from local FachBereich Biblothek (FBB)- used during Bachelors & Master in Med course (mentioned on Uni Bern website: All books used for med course ). So, understanding these are not difficult as I have already done B2 and my 5.5 yrs Indian medicine Bachelors was in English (learning through many of the exact international books mentioned in the list). So, I guess: just one read through these in German is needed & necessary

Sometimes, one come cross or must have words for explaining these process/ procedure into simple words to patients. As 70-90% Medical jargons/ terms are mostly in Latin: So, not a big problem to study also in German books...It is one of the best thing to happen

Thanks again n have a nice weekend

Dr Remo

24
Hi 3Wishes,

Thanks for moral support

Yeah, It is like an Egg vs CHICKEN situation/mystery thing .. Rightly, You have hit the Bull's eye

I am also in this same dilemma, as you have mentioned it :

No job exp. because degree is not recognised & No recognition bcoz not having 3 yrs experience in Swiss/EU hospital..!!

It is vicious cycle- I guess, which should be soon a thing of past.. Lets wait n watch with crossed fingers!

Have a nice weekend

25
Have you thought about doing (non-medical) volunteer work in a hospital,

like helpling/accompanying (english-speaking) patients ? The social service at the hospital would be your entrance point I guess (= Sozialdienst).

You could so get in touch with the medical staff, who in return, will know who you are, what is your motivation, competence etc.; you could build a network there. That could be a first step...?

Good luck and congratulations for your efforts and commitment to integrate here

26
Hi FMX

Thanks for Tips. It can be also nice approach for entry/beginning.

So, I had no idea about it. I will google it also.

Have a good day

27
No idea if this is possible, but just a thought. Your English is excellent so have you thought about commuting to the UK to work on the NHS in the meanwhile?

I remember way back when being treated by a German doctor in England over a weekend. He told me the NHS were paying him stupid money to work weekends, so he was flying in Friday evening and leaving Monday morning.

28
Hi Loz 1983,

Thanks for your concern & appreciation.

But Remember'd ! I am from India, where Britishers ruled for ~200 years. Few good things, they have left behind them- which Indians have preserved/followed like few good buildings, Indian Railways, Democracy, English language especially for professional courses etc. I am just joking but it is true

I think, if one has a good English language proficiency + EU degree + EU citizen (It is easy to move to UK & practice there). All these 2 PLUS in between makes a huge difference like in case of German doctor. I have no PLUS advantage to connect with two other missing links. EU & non EU etc are same like old traditional caste system in India, which few advantageous people like it & some don't but still everybody want/ has to follow it.

Anyways.... Yeah, I have thought about it but that would be my last option because I and my spouse have already lived long time in LDR (long distance relationship between 2012-2015, before we actually both decided to get into registered marriage & follow the negative consequences as well, ahead of us in future).

Since I have non EU MBBS degree. It would require me to give the qualifying PLAB exam, if I wish to do specialisation there (lasting same like here- 5-7 years). And no Idea,if it will be still accepted in Switzerland, when I come back.. !!( especially after BREXIT - but Britishers are clever to negotiate in every situation )

Just as a non academic doctor- I have no idea but still in this case, I think, I will still need to qualify PLAB exam.

Anyways, At the end of all swiss options, I will google about it too.. Or try for Germany. Lets hope for the best in Swiss with crossed fingers...!

Have a nice day

Remo

29

Well you seem to be very dedicated and are exploring all possible avenues, I wish you luck in your quest. Be sure to keep us updated on how you get on

30
When we lived in Australia, we had Chinese friends from Shanghai whose English was not good enough for them to follow their chosen profession. The woman was a highly qualified paediatric specialist in China. The husband was a university lecturer. We spent months and months trying to help them find suitable jobs, but they were constantly told their language skills were not sufficient.

Eventually, we all decided she should take a position lower down on the scale and she became an nursing assistant whilst she improved her language skills. Finally, before she retired, she was able to work in the operating theatre as a senior nurse which gave her at least a sense of purpose and achievement.

So what I am saying here is to start slightly lower down the scale and work your way upwards. Good luck!

31
Hi Evianers,

I got your point. While I brush up my language skills further I am also considering for Paramedic course/Rettungsanitäterkurs . So, it is lowest in the hierarchy as I am highly interested in Ortho-trauma or A&E or Critical care dr or lastly Anasthesia branch(es). These are not exact but similar type of branches. I have to apply next week with SRK for it.

Lets see.

Thanks for your concern.

32
Dr Remo

You are very welcome! Perhaps better to start "at the bottom" and work your way upwards - this way, you have in situ experience, people begin to know who you are and of what you are capable, and thus you can apply for positions as they become available from within, rather from without, if you see what I mean.

33
Good morning evianers,

Yeah absolutely, I got your point.

You meant to "be in the league to show my skills etc than to be just trying from outside as a mute spectator"

Anyways, I am trying to pursue for paramedic course also. Lets see.

Thanx again

34
Hi everybody,

I just thought to share it: At last after almost 2 years and sending 61 job applications, I am happy to get a job offer at SO as temporary Unterassistenzarzt.

Thanks all of you for all your advices and concerns.

In short, to start as a Dr:

Those who are in similar situation like me (non EU citizen + non EU medical UG degree + married/partnered /planning to marry to swiss citizen) - Read all posts prior to this one.

Just Remember 2 things:

1. You can't get job as a Assistenzarzt (CH)/ Resident doctor(AE)/ Senior House Officer (BE) or you can't start your specialisation immediately/ directly. THIS IS VERY CLEAR even with your "B german language certificate or B Ausweis mit Erwerbtätigkeit" (No, matter whatever government bodies like MEBEKO or FMH or Fremdenkontrolle usw says).

Although, if you go to RAV/ BiZ, it will be useless efforts to have any type of info. from them. They don't have any idea about medical specialisation studies/ courses, if you are non EU citizen with non EU degrees.

Alternatives/ Solutions: 2 options:

OPTION 1. Live in Swiss and learn upto C1 levels with certificate from the institute and then +/- C1 exams (from Goethe:easier) + B2 certificate from Goethe /Telc >> find a job. This is costlier option.

Option 2. : Get B ausweis >> live in BASEL/ Northpart of Swiss >> Do B2 General German +/- Telc B2-C1 Medizin in Germany >> Apply for Gutachten/review of educational docx >> If not equivalent degree (It is so most of time incase of: Afro-asian (except: Russian med UG degree) + Latin america): Fachsprachprufüng + Kenntnisseprufüng in Baden-Wüttermburg/Bayern, Germany >> Get Approbation certificate (valid in EU + EFTA + swiss + ??? UK) >> start your weiterbildung in Swiss. This is relative cheaper and most importantly FASTER than swiss process.

For those who have done already specialisation in Afro-asian + Latin american countries. It is not recognised in Swiss (For latest update, Consult FMH/SIWF & not MEBEKO). I know specialist drs, who are repeating their course again in Swiss or doing odd jobs, rather than as an specialist drs.

Thank god, I have not done that in India, or else, I would have been also in this category (= more depressing).

2. You can't go out of swiss for more than 3 months per year because of your B Ausweis (in special case: 6 months/year) {& even without job: Pay for your taxes + Insurances etc (like a swiss stay/residential charges)}. That is so in my case (no idea, if that is same with every individual B Ausweis). So, you can have depressive episodes without social/friend circles +/- environmental conditions etc. So, Life will suck socially here without real job (even if you have best life partner +/- best in laws = to cheer you up).

So, try to find out 1 of 2 solutions/options mentioned above, which suits you. There are no other solutions which I am aware of till now (in my pursuit of swiss med specialisation possibilities)

Have a nice day

DISCLAIMER: My aim is not to tarnish swiss reputation or hurt anybody but to make aspiring drs: aware of the realities (which you/they have read above).

35
Query : we are living in Lausanne. My wife has BDS/ dental graduation degree from India. Please, guide how to get a job/ further specialisation course in Switzerland.

Since I got many private message enquiring about non EU dental degrees recognition/higher education/specialisation.

The latest one, which i replied is copy -pasted below.

(As, my younger sister is also dentist. I had done some research in 2015 for dentist with non EU degrees. Due to new language learning, lengthy process and long waiting time in Switzerland - she is unwilling to go out of India now. Based on those research, I have complied some info)

Hi MrX

Honestly, I have no idea about recent recognition process or further specialisation in dentistry, but here are common things/tips, which I have found on net and could be necessarily important:

Firstly , the most important thing is to have language competency in one of the Swiss national languages (german/french/Italian). Since you guys are living in Lausanne. So, I guess, in French upto B2-C1 level is bare minimum requirement.

Secondly , in order to her graduate dental degree recognised here, you need to contact MEBEKO, a concerned Swiss authority for this purpose ( equivalent to DCI/ MCI in India).

For contact: https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home...itsberufe.html

Although below, you could find the website (in german/french) & copy-edited email response (from MEBEKO to me) for recognition process for doctors in Switzerland (same for dentists too)

https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/de/home...hnmedizin.html

From:[email protected]

To:[email protected]

Subject: AW: Query regarding medical specialisation in switzerland

Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 09:40:31 +0000

Dear Sir,

Referring to your message.

License to practice a medical profession in Switzerland is granted by cantonal authorities. Foreign medical doctors without diploma’s recognition can sometimes be authorized by cantonal authorities of public health to work in a dependent position (e.g. as a collaborator in a hospital). For that they need a) the permission to enter the country and b) the working-permit, both established by cantonal authorities on request of the future employer. To work as independent, a doctor needs the Federal Diploma of Medical Doctor (or a foreign diploma recognized) and a postgraduate title (Swiss or foreign title recognized).

DIRECT RECOGNITION : mostly for EU drs with EU degrees

Switzerland recognizes foreign medical diplomas (and postgraduate titles) based on an international treaty. There is only an agreement between Switzerland and the European Union (EU)/European Free Trade Association (EFTA) Member States regarding mutual recognition of medical diplomas and postgraduate titles; therefore, a non-EU/EFTA diploma cannot be recognized (direct recognition).

INDIRECT RECOGNITION Mostly for non EU drs with EU degrees

Sometimes,indirect recognition is possible (recognition by Switzerland of a diploma’s recognition made in an EU/EFTA Member State) if following requirements are met:

1) the person must have the Swiss or an EU/EFTA-Member State nationality, or be married to a Swiss or an EU/EFTA-Member State citizen;

2) the diploma must have been recognized in an EU/EFTA- Member State according to Article 2 alinea 2 and to Article 3 alinea 3 of the European Directive 2005/36/EC;

3) the person must have at least 3 years of practice, in the EU/EFTA State Member which has recognized the medical diploma or in Switzerland;

4) the person has to be fluent in one of Switzerland national languages: German, French or Italian.

If the above mentioned conditions are fulfilled, please send us following documents in order to obtain an indirect recognition (at: Office fédéral de la santé publique, MEBEKO, 3003 Berne):

- a Curriculum Vitae,

- a certified copy of your passport, and – if you are not Swiss national or national of a EU/EFTA Member State- a certified copy of the passport of your wife/husband (Swiss or EU/EFTA Member State national), as well as a certified copy of your marriage certificate (with a certified copy of a translation of this marriage certificate, if not in English, German, French or Italian);

- a certified copy of your medical diploma, as well as a certified copy of an official translation of the diploma,

- a certified copy of the diploma’s recognition maid in an EU/EFTA Member State, with a certified copy of an official translation of the recognition (if needed),

- the proof of work experience in Switzerland or in a EU/EFTA Member State, stating the dates when you started and ended working, your job title and working rate. You should reach an equivalent as 3 years of full time practice during the last past 5 years.

- a proof of language proficiency (level B2) in French, German or Italian.

NON EU DEGREE RECOGNITION : Mostly for non EU drs with non EU degrees

If a diploma’s recognition is not possible, it can be possible toobtain the Federal Diploma of Medical Doctor: The Commission on Medical Professions decides about the conditions to acquire the Federal Diploma. You need to be fluent in German or French. To get the Federal Diploma of Medical Doctor, a medical doctor whose diploma cannot be recognized has generally 3 solutions:

1° - Study one to three years at a Swiss medical school depending on the university appreciation. Admission at the university is in the only competence of the universities. A decision from the MEBEKO fixing the conditions under which you can obtain the Federal Diploma does not give right to a study place: you have to check with the university if you can obtain a study place.

- Pass the examinations of these years.

- Pass the Federal Licensing Examination (FLE).Or

2° Work three years full time in Switzerland as a medical doctor and then pass the FLE.Or

3° Work five years full time in Switzerland as a medical doctor and then pass part of the FLE (theoretical part).

If you’re interested by obtaining the Federal Diploma of Medial Doctor, please send us following documents:

- a Curriculum Vitae,

- a copy of your passport,

- a copy of your high school diploma, with translation into French, German Italian or English,

- a copy of the medical diploma from the university, with translation into French, German, Italian or English,

- a copy of your university transcript stating all the exams you took during your university studies, with translation into French, German, Italian or English,

- if at hand, proof of work experience in Switzerland stating the dates when you started and ended working, your job title and working rate.

Upon receipt of all required documents, the Commission on Medical Professions will grant you permission to- if needed- take any prerequisite courses or examinations for the FLE, as well as the permission to take the FLE. Fees: The application for the decision fixing under which conditions you can obtain the Federal Diploma costs 680.- Swiss francs. There will be an additional charge (at the present time around 1700.- Swiss francs) to register for the exam, for the exam and the diploma. If you have to study, you must also add some study costs.

We are at your disposal for any further question.

Yours truly,

Miss F

Federal Department of Home Affairs FDHA

Federal Office of Public Health

Health Policy Directorate

Schwarzenburgstrasse 161, CH-3003 Berne

Tel.+41 31 325 43 54

Fax+41 31 323 88 05

mailto:[email protected]

http://www.bag.admin.ch

Thirdly, for her dental specialisation/ Weiterbildung course: try to contact >> SSO, authority responsible for conducting & monitoring dental specialisation course.

https://www.sso.ch/sso/berufsbilder/zahnaerztin.html

At last, try to Google job portals for intern(Unterassistant)/JR (Assistenzarzt) positions, whichever she could find easily or interests her.

Eg: jobs.ch or jobagents.ch or aerzte.ch or fmh.ch/jobs (mainly for drs) or https://www.sso.ch/meta-navigation/links.html

Good luck & have a nice day

Dr M

36

You do know that under forum rules you’re not allowed to post PM content without the sender’s permission, don’t you.

“Any communication sent via Private Message or Reputation Comment must not be posted or quoted in any publicly viewable area without the permission of the sender.”

http://www.englishforum.ch/announcem…uncements.html

37
Hi - instead of going after practice - why don't you look at pharma industry Jobs?

You can try to enter via an agency side - i.e. doing grunt work medical writing and build up. Provided you have Sound writing and communication skills consistent with UK/US proficiency both spoken and written. It may take some time to build up but once you've obtained experience you can rise pretty quickly with your MD degree provided you're smart, competant, and have sufficient political saavyiness.

Good luck - for Starters there is an Indian agency called Indegene, just look at them only to see what you're getting yourself into, subject matter wise, they have UK Offices. There are many agencies like that here in CH. then after some time in one of them you can try Pharma, it will be hard to enter without experience.

Look at Medical Affiairs and Clinical Development and Drug Safety where clinical experience is valued.

Cheers

38
Hi Fleece stealer,

I didn't knew this but still the query/case through PM is almost fully altered without much of their details except the name of the places. I just wanted to forward the info, which I had so far about the 0rocess in dentistry too and help others : seeking Infos & asked me repeatedly about similar Qs.

Thanks n have a nice day

M

39
Hi man,

Thanks and really appreciate your advices. Presently, I got a job at Solothurn. Let's see how it goes further.

I didn't get you about following:

1. Do you mean: medical thesis work >> then get MD degree? (It is mostly for non EU drs with EU degrees, as far as I know)

2. What you mean exactly with "political savyiness"??

English is not a problem for me. So far, English had been medium of instruction for my whole education.

I have mailed Indegene today, will wait for their response to know if I fit into their list of requirements.

Until now didn't came across such agencies in CH, if you happen to know their names or any clue about them further. Could you please msg me a bit more in detail (+/- their names)?

Considering this too, if things doesn't turn up good with specialisation/ Weiterbildung.

Thanks again for infos n tips

Have a nice day

Dr M

40

Hi regarding your first question, you're probably asking about the "Medical Writing" i mentioned - that's a Job - "Medical Writer". You're responsible for generating scientific Content what will go into a few out puts, ie. writing scientific publications surrounding Company sponsored clinical studies that go into peer reviewed journals. so the big ones could be NEJM, Lancet, etc. small ones, i.e. Ciruclation if in cardio, etc.

You'll work with the pharma Client and the MD academic experts on clinical data for publication kinda Project manage and write at the same time. You'll also do Content Generation for slide kits that will be used for symposia, internal Training etc. etc. You'll get the learn in the industry as part of the Job but you'lll be doing alot of grunt work first. Some knowledge of statistics will help you and a good eye for fine Detail.

Political saavyiness, well let's leave it at knowing what to say, and when to say it, and to whom, and how to say it. You'll learn that by crash and burn only but if you're a fast learner you'll pick it up quickly.

As for agencies in CH, they exist to be honest, I dont' really know them (!), i've usually used UK agencies. Some may have a satellite Office in Basel.

Good with connecting up with Indegene, I don't know them well so I can't endorse anything, i've only seen a pitch once and thought they were doing some good stuff. alot of agencies Need People who have some clinical acumen to do the grunt work as a starter, if you're good - within a year or 2 you can move on fast.

For me it was 4 months in an agency before my first in-house pharma Job, but that was the US and things are a bit easier there - I was a grunt worker medical writer but those 4 months were some I had some intense and stressful learnings - i crashed and burned, but it got me into an entry -Level dream Job in pharma.

Don't rush, do you homework in Terms of reseaching this path as you're doing for others - do some informational interviewing and get a baseline knowledge of what this path is about, there is alot on the Internet. Look up Medical Writer Jobs just to see the description, find some scientific publications, start off with a clinical Trial paper to see if that is something you'd be happy writing/deliveirng Content -etc.

Assess first if this the path for you before reaching out - the other part about this industry is that its credibility sensitive, first impressions Count so don't make your first Impression, the last impression.

Good luck!