Low Fee 3rd Pillar Options

Hi All,

A few years back I looked at various 3rd Pillar providers, and VIAC looked like the best option for what I'm looking for (low fees and had lots of index fund/ETF type options). Ultimately I didn't open any accounts, but now I am.

Is VIAC still a good option for low fees and index fund/ETF-type investments? Has something better come along in the meantime?

Thanks in advance!

I use VIAC myself and happy with it.

FinPension is another popular one

Finpension is currently the best

Have a CS 3A fund at no expense.

https://www.credit-suisse.com/ch/en/...rd-pillar.html

Performance has been decent.

What do you mean at no expense? Look at the product sheet in the link you provided. The total expense ratio is between 0.8% and 1.48%. FinPension and VIAC are in the region of 0.4-0.5%.

CS also don’t allow you to choose the funds you are invested in, only the asset class mix. The OP specifically wants to choose the funds.

It looks like VIAC and finpension are both excellent options, thanks everybody.

Here's a good writeup: https://thepoorswiss.com/viac-vs-finpension-3a/

Now off to see if they'll do business with an American.

(Insert obligatory rant here about how free those of us from the "Land of the Free" really are.)

I was going to post this link as well but somehow decided against

As an American a 3A does not pay. You will save on Swiss tax but pay more on US tax.

Doesn't it depend on your income level? Isn't there a foreign income tax credit of USD 95k or something. Tom is always going on about it and how he's never had to pay additional tax to the US.

108,700 to be exact. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...come-exclusion

However, it includes all income including 2nd Pillar.

With my salary here plus rental and investment income from the States I'm above that.

Wouldn't putting money into a 3a, which reduces my Swiss tax burden by reducing my effective taxable income here not also reduce my effective tax burden in the US since I believe the US uses my Swiss taxable income as well?

The IRS couldn't care less about your Swiss taxable income. It's your Gross income minus AHV plus your employer's contribution to your Pension. 3A is not US income tax deductible. However, an IRA is. However, an IRA is not Swiss deductible. But, one will get a credit based on Swiss tax paid.

Their "3.65% average return" for the Mixta-BVG points to a lousy deal. Annualised return (aka compounding) will be significantly lower but they need to sell that trash somehow so they show average return instead.

Caveat emptor.

In their defence the Mixta-70 index that I have a part of my pillar 3 in for indirect amortisation of my mortgage performed a little better than my choice of ETFs in FinPension last year. I believe the actively managed Mixta-70 performed better again.

3.65% is one of the funds with a higher fixed income component isn’t it?

Possible, but not clear to me. They call the products collectively "CSA Mixta-BVG investment groups" in their product sheet (not just in the headline), so singular could denote any one of them. But there's also a product named "CSA Mixta-BVG", for this it's indeed 51% bonds, plus stocks and RE.

Correct 3A contributions not US tax deductible, but bigger issue for US citizens is even having this kind of investment. IRS cares if you hold something called a "PFIC", which includes almost all 3A plans. Something to google when really bored, but bottom line for Americans is it's best to just avoid it IMHO.

AHV? I thought the US does not recognize AHV payments as gross income? Wouldnt it thus be gross income plus employer contribution?

yeah the whole PFIC thing is a drag. I could imagine one benefit to be to pay in cash for several years and then withdraw for a home.

However the longer you keep it in, the less valuable this becomes so Id say maybe if you have a 3 year window.....

Thank you all for the information.

What is not clear to me is that just because the US government (insert obligatory rant here) doesn't allow me to deduct 3a contributions from my US taxes (insert second obligatory rant here), I still can deduct them from my Swiss taxes thus saving me some, just not as much. Is this correct?

And as far as I can tell, I can use all the investment options available via VIAC or finpension that a regular, unencumbered Swiss person can use (insert third obligatory rant here). Is this also correct?

(insert final obligatory rant here about how free those of us from the "Land of the Free" really are.)

Again, thank you all for the help.

Actually, it could be that 3rd pillar stock investment might trigger PFIC obligations. I would advise against going down this route. I have viac but stopped contributing for these reasons.

Your best bet for now is private investments through Interactive Brokers.