MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

We have never had any issue getting health insurance, a phone contract (mobile or fixed lines), renting a flat, or opening a bank account here without a permit. A passport or ID card should be enough in most cases!

i've not had an issue renting either but i've heard that other people have. no way you could buy, that's for sure. salt and swisscom wouldn't give you a contract without a permit. ubs and postfinance won't open a bank account. css won't sell you health insurance. you seem to have had more luck than most

No, of course you probably can't buy without a permit as generally only residents (with a valid residence permit) or Swiss citizens themselves can purchase (without extra other types of permits and complications).

Actually PostFinance will open an account without a permit as we have been through this process twice. You do need an ID card or a passport. Providing a Swiss postal address or a postal address from a country bordering Switzerland is sufficient.

I had a PostFinance account before moving here as I previously lived in a bordering country.

My partner's account was also opened without a permit. It is the address that counts.

just checked their site - think you're right:

"Customers domiciled abroad CHF 25/month per account, irrespective of assets"

doesn't change the fact that they wouldn't open an account for me when i didn't have a permit

In Switzerland it's not really either, more a fictional income figure is agreed based on an assumed income of at least 400k, usually assessed on 5 times the housing cost. Only available to people who have not worked in CH for at least 10 years.

In such circumstances world wide income is ignored.

Thanks Aarosaline. This is helpful! Any idea if we can rent an apartment for 1 year without the B permit. I mean we will be in Zurich in 2 weeks and planning to find an apartment and visit the Migrant Office, but can we make an offer on a flat while we are in the process of B permit application?

Second question if I may - let's just assume we apply for the B permit in Zug, can we rent a flat in Zurich even though we got our permit in Zug? Where would we be required to pay taxes etc?

Huge thank you for your help!

You pay taxes where you live, so you would need a permit in ZH, or at least 2 properties, the 1 in Zug should be bigger & you should spend more time there.

Anyone can make an offer for a flat at any time, it's if you get taken seriously. If the property won't rent as its overpriced you may be in luck.

you need the permit in the canton where you live.

i don't think you'll have a problem doing a deal on a rental without a permit. especially with a private landlord. however i hear its tough to find rental places in zurich and demand is high. some landlords prefer not to deal with the hassle of non residents etc. probably better in zug.

Thank you Fatmanfilms.

How about the B permit without gainful employment? Would 1 mln CHF cash in a bank would be sufficient for the Zurich Migrant office to accept 2 adults + baby?

We have chosen Zurich as Zurich is more lively than other cities, it has also a great connecting flights for us to travel to our start-up office based abroad. We also have a few friends living there. I know however than Zug is better when it comes to taxes. We also love Geneva and its close access to an international airport which is important to us.

What canton would you recommend for a young family?

Thank you!

probably

ticino

1 million cash on hand would likely be acceptable as you should be able to live for 5 years on that even in ZH.

Thank you DL21!

Could you recommend us any good area of the Zurich or the Zug canton to live? We are after a safe place, close to amenities. We also would like to be pretty close to the Zurich airport as my partner will be travelling to work abroad on regular basis.

Thank you!

That rental income, minus expenses (e.g. mortage interest, agency fees, repair costs), counts as income.

sorry, no. i live down south. i do however fly to london, new york or hong kong comfortably almost weekly.

Tip: You can avoid those ridiculous 25 franc per month charges by giving a Swiss postal address for the account.

If you open the account with a passport for example, there won't be any address showing up on the copy of the document they take.

In essence PostFinance (or any other bank come to think of it) are not immigration.

Plus, if you keep a minimum balance of 7'500 francs at the end of each calendar month the account is essentially fee-free.

I'm sorry they wouldn't open it for you when you tried. It all depends on who you get at the counter sometimes. Was it at the counter that it was turned down? If so they obviously didn't have a clue.

Regarding your questions to the Migration offices, I think they genuinely assess each case of granting / extending a permit based on the facts, and therefore won't engage in speculation as to what might be enough. For example for an EU job-seeker, they will assess how hard you're looking for a job, and the lady on the phone would not be drawn on any of my questions like "what if he did X Y Z?". But they could immediately answer more clear-cut factual questions that I had.

For example, they look at the size of your apartment and whether they judge it 'suitable' for the size of your family and income level. For my own B permit, they quizzed me on how often I went back to my house (which I own) in the UK, and why I didn't bring my own furniture to Switzerland (because it's common practice to rent furnished property in the UK, unlike here). This was quite an easy 10 minute phone conversation, after which they sent the permit extension I needed, but you see how it is subjective and decided at the time. My understanding is that they are trying to stop people claiming to live here for tax reasons (especially low-tax Zug), when in fact they might really live in another country or kanton. If you are genuine, have kids enrolled in school and plenty of money, I expect this will be easier to prove than it was for me.

In terms of Zug vs Zurich, surely you want to come and see the places for yourself? Even within each Kanton there are lots of places to choose from.

Everything is scaled down in Switzerland. Zurich is not that lively compared to UK cities (I previously lived in Bristol). There isn't the same dining out culture (it's so expensive and the food is mediocre), most things are shut on a Sunday, and so on. Switzerland is all about the great outdoors! I expected to hate Zug and move to Zurich like a shot, but I've ended up staying in Zug. Access to the lake is much easier, free and less crowded (and it's a few degrees warmer), I can see the mountains from my window, and it's 20 minutes on the fast train to either Zurich or wonderful Luzern if you crave a decent night out. In Zug you're also close to excellent cycling and jogging trails alongside rivers and in the woods. It's exceptionally safe and for kids there's a large aviary and small animal park in the centre, a big ice hockey team, sports facilities, summer festivals, swimming pool. Obviously there's way more bars and nightclubs in Zurich, but I'm guessing that's not your priority. The direct train from Zug to Zurich airport is about 50 minutes, running every 30 minutes. You can do the journey a bit quicker if you use faster trains and change in Zurich. ( www.sbb.ch )

As Zug is the capital of the Kanton, and full of foreigners, there's heaps of events going on and opportunities to socialise, and nice to have 'only' 50 people at an expat event, not 200 like in Zurich. The British Swiss Chamber of Commerce (BSCC) also runs events in Zug, as well as Zurich and Geneva. Zug/Baar (which are practically one joined place) have all all the big supermarkets and useful shops like H&M, as well as a big out of town shopping centre. I also thought that Zug has much more to offer in terms of family-size apartments - my single friends often migrating to Zurich in search of relatively affordable small apartments. There's an international school here, as well as Swiss schools, although I am not a parent myself and don't know Zurich at all in this respect.

Another difference to the UK is how big business (whether factories or headquarters of multinationals) are randomly located in small villages all over the place here. Then Zug itself has something like 3 times the number of companies as residents, and a huge number of people commute to Zug (as it's such low tax for companies).

Basically, while it still might not be for you (especially if you are used to London), you absolutely can't compare Zug with a similar size town in the UK.

The key issue however might be finding an apartment, which is pretty difficult. I once read that the Zurich area (from Zug to Schaffhausen) is the mostly densely populated area of Europe. Demand far outstrips supply and the Swiss don't like renting to foreigners so much (charitably, because they are less sure that you will stay in the apartment long term, or cynically it might be discrimination - have some sympathy, there are so many foreigners here).

It seems you turn up to a flat viewing with 100 other prospective applicants, clutching all your documents (work contract or other proof of income, some specific statement from the kanton that you have no debts, maybe references - some googling will help here). Then you apply, and hope you are selected above the other candidates (and that no-one Swiss has applied!). It's not like the UK where first person to turn up with a deposit gets the flat. It's perhaps less competitive when you're looking at larger, more expensive, family apartment - I don't know. But this (and the ease of train travel) is a big reason for me not being bothered to move to Zurich myself.

I hope this doesn't put you off moving, moving is never easy but it's a wonderful, beautiful country, I personally find Swiss people very friendly, and good on you for escaping the UK while you can before Brexit! Viel Glueck!