Hi all, I'd like to ask for advice on a parking ticket (or whatever I should call it) I got from POLIS Control GmbH (ParkOrdnugs und Liegenschaften Service).
Namely, each week my wife and I are dropping our son for sports activities in nearby town early evening. Unfortunately there are no Besucher places around, only private ones belonging to various companies. Parents were advised to park on places belonging to one of those firms, which already at the time of the classes, is closed and pretty much all spots are free.
One day all those places were full and my wife spotted a white zone (numbered) parking space on which she parked during that day. She looked around to check if the parking has a sign or any "private area" note somewhere, but she did not find anything, so she left the car there.
When she came back a guy working in a nearby restaurant approached her and said that this place belongs to the restaurant and that she will soon be fined because of "illegal" parking. My wife apologized but highlighted that she checked all signs or other indications and nothing mentioned that she could not park there. The guy did not accept the explanation and just repeated himself that she will be fined soon.
Attached you will find two pictures of the area and the nearby signs. Both related to underground parking within the building but not necessarily to the one outside (does it make a difference or should not?).
And so 2 weeks passed and indeed we got mail with 2x100CHF fines (for two separate days of illegal parking on the same spot) from the mentioned organization.
I understand that as the place was not tagged as Besucherplatz, we probably should not have parked there, so the fault is probably on our side. But I just want to make sure that this is really justified.
Two questions I have:
1. How best to verify if this place indeed belongs to a firm and we were fined rightfully?
2. Should we understand that these white signs on the wall should "by default" relate to the outside parking spot as well?
2. Is 100CHF a fair fine? (I got years ago a fine from the "neighbor police" for 40CHF for choosing wrong Besucherplatz...)
Is it actually a fine or a indemnification fee (Umtriebsentschädigung)? This is important as a private entity cannot issue a parking fine, they can only collect fees.
A Umtriebsentschädigung of CHF 50 - 60 is acceptable. More might not upheld in court. The federal court ruled that fee of CHF 52 is acceptable 6B_192/2014 .
Depending on the circumstances she might wiggle herself out using federal court rulling 6B_384/2020
It clearly says that that parking is for staff only. And that's what it means: no-one else is allowed to use those spaces.
After all, you cannot know when those staff members might need those spaces, at any hour of the day or night. Also: you cannot know what the arrangements might be between that company and the restaurant. Perhaps the staff park there when they want to go to the restaurant. I think it sounds rather nice of the restaurant man to warn your wife of the possible fine.
In general: if the sign says - as the one in your photo very clearly doe (unless someone hopes to say that the "Parkhaus" does not apply to the "Parkplätze") - that you're not allowed to park there, I'd take that as a valid warning.
Are you really going to start contesting a private fine when you know yourself you did park there?
The effort and the outcome are likely to take more effort out of you. My guess is twas not the first time the private spaces got used and there might even be cameras to record the offenders.
As in the UK, private parking spaces are indeed "mafia" managed, a wild west of arbitrary fines and not so easy to bring to justice.
In the end, take it as a lesson learnt, as with so many other topics in Switzerland, there is little leeway for not following the rules. This Forum is full of fine stories about it
I have been following the EF for about 3 years now, and it has mostly been insightful and sometimes amusing reading. It has also helped me to understand many things I would have otherwise had difficulties with as a newcomer to Switzerland, more precisely to the Vaud Riviera. Thus, I first need to thank all helpful posters. However, I have not actively participated with posts, thanks and/or groans, so I ask for forgiveness for my passive stance.
Now I have a question about private parking police and how to deal with them. Last week I got a letter with a parking fine of 40 francs for the Lidl parking in Villeneuve, stating that my wife had parked there for over an hour (95 minutes) while shopping in late November. She was not aware that there was a one-hour limit, so he called the Lidl shop and tried to explain that she was a regular and relatively big customer and spent so much time shopping before Christmas. Their answer was that they don't care since they have outsourced the parking supervision to an outside company. Later she admitted that she has failed to see there was a sign with the one hour limit, so she agreed to pay the fine.
However, three days later another letter came from Park&Control, this time requesting a parking fine for a parking violation on November 3, so before this first offense. They also requested additional 5 francs for a reminder, stating that they had already sent a letter on November 11, which we have never received.
Are we being tricked into a chain of parking fines, or is this a regular procedure? I suspect that after the first fine the company figured that we can be milked for more, even after almost three months?
There is no scam here. Either your wife or you parked too long at Lidl on Nov. 3, or they've made a mistake. Contact them, tell them you'll pay the 40 francs, but as you never received the first letter, you won't pay the additional 5 francs.
1 hour only parking? Seems a bit short. Round here it's usually 3 hours.
Did you get a fine (amende) or do they only charge a fee?
They are not allowed to send you parking fines. If they send you a fine you can take them to court and they will loose very hard as they are impersonating a public official. However, they can sent you a bill with a fee. In the end you violated the terms and condition of the parking space and CHF 40 is a reasonable amount for overstaying 35 minutes. It would be the same on a public parking place.
Thank you for for your responses, NotAllThere and aSwissInTheUS. I was going to respond with the Thank you button, and only then I learned that I need to first build my status with 10 posts before getting access to this feature. On the other hand I have also learned that I need at least one groan to be accepted into the EF community, so I am also thanking aSwissInTheUS for his groan.
Back to the question: yes, I will pay both fees (they are not fines-amendes, I had to recheck the writing for this), and I will ask my wife to either shop faster next time or avoid Lidl altogether.
You could contact Lidl again and tell them that if they don't instruct their parking partner to allow the free time to be 2 hours, you won't shop there any longer.
The Aldi I got to in Germany allows three hours. The Lidl in Switzerland 2.
I'm not even a car owner so it's really a theoretical question out of curiosity: can a refusal to pay such a non-fine fee "fine" get someone into the infamous debt register? I guess it could?
It can turn into a fine and/or it can turn into a debt register entry.
If there is a court ordered parking ban, the owner can press criminal charges and the court will issue a real fine. If you do not pay the fine the court will start formal debt collection process whihc results in a debt register entry. If still unsucseful even jail is an option.
If there is no court ordered parking ban or it does not apply (see link above) it is a civil law mater and the fee is a contractual obligation. If the terms of the contract are valid, you do not pay, it can indeed lead into a debt register entry. But not jail.