Solar for the home

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61

Great point, and for sure as you are the owner and user of a solar system your point is much more valid. I`m still pending for March 2023 to get installed (I hope :-)) just signed contract last month for 16kWh system, sorry said 14kWh in original post but calculated wrong. The linkage to heat pump yes was maybe not so accurate as you usually use it in winter etc with no solar benefit. Think you missed my argument.

My point was that in summer when you can sell back to grid you can offset this. Our Gemeinde / local power company here is paying 0.2 CH /KW next year, one of the highest rates in CH, we are about 30km south of Basel, there is a website that shows the rates see below.

So basically my point the scale of economics works as if we have a good spring summer like this year we would potentially pay nothing, maybe even earn some. We would earn 3k based on a 16kWh system earning 0.2CHF/KW selling back to grid. Our electrical bill before with oil was 1k, now with price increases and heat pump 3k.

https://www.vese.ch/fr/pvtarif/#MapTitle

62
In 20 years never experienced a black out, but agree this winter there is a big chance, but even if a black out, the battery would not be full due to snow or lack of sunshine or engery gained being used. From this point again it doesnt make any sense. I`m amazed people buy these. There is one point where batteries could be useful, if you could use your electric car as the battery. The guys we bought from said they are working on this. So thats a win win!

63
In a solar system there are quite large fixed costs, and panels are the cheapest elements of the system and so in various situations it can make sense to maximise the panels that the roof can support even if it is over-provisioning energy. Of course,if a third party is installing and you have high labour costs and low feed-in tariffs (as we do in Switzerland) then economically it might not make sense.

If you over-provision on solar panels then the batteries can always be filled in a day and so it is a question of how you size the battery in accordance to how much run time you need from battery only. I've seen systems out there with 3 days worth of battery storage.

64
I had 4 hours out just this month and this winter, Europe has a high chance of having energy shortages this winter and Switzerland an even higher chance: due to EU disputes, new rules mean that EU countries have to make 70% of grid capacity available to EU members (excluding Switzerland) and so the two factors make it somewhat worrying.

That's why I want to ensure some kind of back-up power to ensure that my fridge/freezer and oil burner can work independently of the grid.

65

Great point but why invest 10k for a system that you will use a few times a year if at all. At same time there was a cool element of lighting candles and having to talk to each other in a black out which makes you more humble for the system we have now.

For scale battery is not an issue, have you seen the farm outhouses covered in 100`s of panels and they got the old contracts worth x5 more than now. Lucky guys.

66
The misses is absolutely terrified that we will see rolling blackouts this winter as the crisis intensifies. While I don’t agree that this is likely, it seems to me that having a battery with a large capacity would be the answer to her concerns.

I contacted Group E and asked for a quote. Their response was they were unable to schedule a visit in less than three months and that installation would be 4-6 months after contract signing. They can’t give me a date now and suggest I reapply in mid-October.

No mention of a fee for doing the estimate though.

67
Gas is needed to produce electricity mainly in europe and they have reserves up to 90% full so see no blackouts this winter, maybe in industry etc but not for households and critical sevices like hospitals. Putin gambled wrong here that he could screw us. Getting help from engery companies now is impossible either they they say 12 month waiting list or 1k+ for a quote its crazy!

68
Anyone tried across the border to source an installer?

69
I use a CPAP at night and have a real fear that rolling blackouts will leave me without sleep.

70
https://www.resmed.com/en-us/sleep-a...ttery-options/

71
Yes, but don't get misled by the 90% full figure. Full capacity in the EU on average is less than 100 days of average consumption. Much less for winter consumption. So 90% is less than 3 months of winter usage.

Full tanks help avoid the worst case scenario, but it is a bit too close for comfort and very susceptible to unforeseen negative events.

72
True! Expecting the worst but hoping for the best!

73
I have Löwenstein, but I know what you mean. When it gets to the point where you need this at home then things are dire to say the least

74
I found another reason to over-provision on panels: if I read it correctly, you get paid 380 CHF subsidy for each kWp. For a DIY system, the marginal cost of additional panels can be close to this and so the additional capacity would effectively be free.

75
The subsidy is a somewhat slow and tiresome process. It is done through Pronovo and requires an inspection to prove it's actually there and running. Also, Pronovo required a copy from the Grundbuchamt (land registry), which of course costs! Payment was made some 9 months after installation - and is counted as income and taxed.

For my 9,600kWp system I received CHF4,264 (made up of 2 parts 1000 and 3264 ). This makes it CHF444 per kWp.

The panels were over CHF1000 each. More than about 15kWp will require more infrastructure including another inverter. Making money from a system that is above your usage will depend on what the rate is for feeding the grid.

EKZ 2022 tariff is CHF0.091 high rate (74% of my production) and CHF0.0775 off-peak (26% of production). In 2021 my 24 panels generated 9,192kWh. So 383kWh per panel.

Extra panels assuming all their production went to the grid would yield:

100 x CHF0.0775 = 7.75

283 X CHF0.091 = 25.75

TOTAL CHF33.50 per extra panel per year

If the panels alone, excluding infrastructure, cost CHF1000 it would take over 29 years to even pay for it. Deducting the subsidy and one-off tax benefit, this could be nearer 20 years - even so...

76
Not sure when you got your panels, but now you can get 1kWp for 400CHF. You need to add on a bit for mounting system (in my case zero as enough leftover). But you are right that the big one would be if you cross your inverter limit.

77

I just got 2 offers from the same company in eastern Switzerland.

option 1:

8.91 kWp

22 Risen RSM40-8-405M panels (405W, 21.1% efficiency, 85% output after 25 years)

Solar Edge SE10K inverter, including all connectivity services for 25 years

Solar Edge DC optimizers on every panel, since panels are on different roofs in different angles.

23k CHF including mwst

3,700 CHF federal subsidy

roughly 3000chf in tax deductions (in kanton SG you can deduct this from income)

Total cost around 16,500 CHF

option 2:

12.96 kWp

32 panels, same as above

Solar Edge SE12.5K or SE16K inverter

optimizers on every panel

31,500 CHF including mwst

5100 CHF federal subsidy

around 3900 CHF in tax deductions

Total cost around 22,500 CHF

The offer was free with no obligation to take it. It includes all installation work, including connecting to the grid. It also includes all paperwork for permits, inspection, and subsidies.

There is no battery storage, but the system is compatible with various batteries being manufactured at the moment. The risk is that if we wait too long to add batteries, there might be new batteries which this inverter might not be compatible with, requiring us to get a new inverter (I think inverters cost around 2000chf).

78
I priced up a DIY 10kWp system and it came to about 5k (net of subsidy but not factoring tax savings). Of course, it means you have to go up on the roof to install it yourself and it also an island system (no grid tie).

79
Just curious to know if you went ahead with the DIY install? I wish I were brave enough!

80
I have most of the components, the most difficult is getting hold of the right stuff to mount on the roof. I anyway didn't want to do it in winter and will wait for spring. It looks like there will be no emergency situation (though I will rig something up for emergency use if required).