Swiss attitude to their architectural heritage.

I think you misunderstood me. I used styrofoam or styropor as a metaphor for all things that are fake but pretending to be part of a structure.

Let me explain. Let us take as exhibit A this structure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagram_Building

Okay, Mies van der Rohe, one of the most accalimed modernist architects that ever lived. You're hardly going to call him a cheap copycat architect or tell me, "ah, yes, but a REAL architect wouldn't do that".

Yet if you read the article, you will see that those outside girders on the building that pretend to be supporting it are not supporting anything. He just put them there because he thought it's decorative when a building looks as if it is supported by girders on the outside.

To me, that's styrofoam (in the metaphoric sense). I see no functional difference between this and sticking some angels on a baroque palace.

This I don't get. maybe if the pitch is steep, it's going to cast an extra shadow. But if the pitch is shallow, then the sun must be very low before that shadow is noticeable, and by that time a flat roofed building would also have an enormous shadow.

I still don't see what's good about it. Maybe you are suggesting there are building regulations. You can only build this many meters and to use that fully you need a flat roof. But this is Peter pointing to Paul as these regulations were themselves made by architects. If sufficient architects said, let us change these regulations and say, this height allowed up to the beginning of the roof and then this much more for the roof, I'm sure the regulations would be changed eventually.

I would like to at least tentaively hold this mirror back to you ask whether you have really thought about these things or just accept things because your professors at architecture school said so. I can understand that architects think a certain way about architecture, just as doctors think a certain way about medicine or teachers think a certain way about education. But all these groups have a certain tendency of failing to see the wood for the trees, and when people disagree with their views, of assuming the others are wrong rather than asking if maybe they are too close to the matter to have objective judgement of all things. As I said before, I have architects in my family and they really do love flat roofs and square windows and admire architects who make these things. When they have a customer who wants something more traditional, of course they will do it. After all, the customer is king (as long as he pays) but behind his back they think he's a philistine and they certainly don't put those buildings into their portfolio of the best things they ever did. It's not just about doing the best they can in the constraints that money and other things create, but it's that they love the constrainst that make this the best solution.

This thread has reminded me why I love Goms. Still the way it use to be and not a single "block house". I hope Goms stays that way and doesn't turn into the next Davos.

Shamless plug for our vacation rental in Niederwald. Built in 1546, renovated in 2012. http://www.booking.com/hotel/ch/jentsch-haus.html

Let me remind everyone how much cheaper it is to just level a house and build a new one than to renovate an old house.

I'm sorry, but in Switzerland this is not always true.

Have you ever renovated a house in Switzerland? I have renovated quite a few over the years.

Most of the older Swiss houses have very good foundations, with solid walls and a very strong roof. Every thing you need to make a succesfull renovation.

I live in an old Wooden Hut which I am still renovating (painting) the outside.

Inside is finished. New floors, new kitchen and new insulation etc.

A new one would have cost me 3 times the sum of the renovation.

Long live the old Swiss Houses.

Salut Zämma

Oh so true Big Mara- our house has 90cm thick stone walls which have been up since the 16C and roof rafters and frame which are totally sound and date from 17C (after a fire in 1663)- and no way will it be raised to the ground and replaced - it is protected too, thank goodness.

I agree that the Swiss have strange ideas when it comes to buildings with an architectural significance. Look at the following examples in and around Thun and try to work our which are protected because of their architectural importance . . .

Have you had a look ?

Well they all are !

1) The wooden hut. It is one of the original buildings in Thun with a slightly sloping roof (like an old school desk). The air conditioner and satellite dish, as is the copper roof, are not original.

German explanation . . .

Originelles, alpin wirkendes Wohnhaus, erb. 1937; schlichter schindelverrandeter Holzbau auf Betonsockel, durch Terrassen und Veran-den klar gegliederte Volumetrie; kennzeichnend ist das schwach geneigte Pultdach (Zinkblech). Typologisch für Thun Unikat.

2) The concrete industrial building. It is a hospital (or now a nursing home). To you and I any old ugly concrete building but not those who know a bit about architectural heritage:

German Explanation . . .

Ehem. Bezirksspital, erbaut 1969-1971, seit 2000 Pflegeheim

Überzeugender Bau mit subtil strukturierten Sichtbetonfassaden, volumetrisch aus drei z.T. ineinander greifenden,

unterschiedlich grossen Quadern komponiert. Der grosse, langgezogene Baukörper im O dominiert die Anlage. Der streng

waagrechten Gliederung der O-Fassade ist durch die Fensterpfosten ein Raster unterlegt, der S-seitig von grossen

Loggienbalkonen mit markant auskragender Brüstung durchbrochen wird. Einen wirkungsvollen Kontrast dazu bilden der

um 1 Geschoss höhere Zwischenbau mit einer flächigen, die Senkrechte betonenden Fassade und der im NW

anschliessende niedrige Baukörper.

Das ehem. Spital bildet zusammen mit dem Altersheim von 1982-1984 im S einen grösseren Komplex nördl. oberhalb

des Dorfes.

3) The castle

No explanaition needed.

All correct and wrong at the same time. Why ? Because in Switzerland, the union sets basic standards and laws but the final real rules are left to the Cantons and even the cities and towns and villages

A practical example. How you can do business in Glattbrugg-Glattpark-Opfikon is not the same as in Rümlang or Oberglatt or Zürich-Stadt

Also for you. You speak about the City of Thun. Whenever they of course have to act in accordance with the law, HOW they proceed is not even in the hands of the Canton of Bern but fully in the hands of the City of Thun

I think what you'll find is actually that it's much more profitable for a developer to level a house and build three or four flats than it is for a developer to renovate a house.

unless new municipal guidelines would mean that the new building(s) could no longer built as high as the old one and no longer so close to the road and no longer have 24 apartments but only about 20

add to this that a developer who owns a building "unter Denkmalschutz" can have it both ways

> get financial support for guarding a building

> do good business by modernising the internal structures

the incentives for such "developers" were started EXACTLY with the intention to make the preservation of beautiful buildings financially interesting for the owners

Yes it's more profitable for a developer. But for the typical home buyer it is not. For the price of renovating one floor in our three floor house in Niederwald we could have easily built a three floor family house. To renovate the whole house we could easily buy a villa on the Med. A 450 year old house is no easy task. We tried to renovate as much as possible our selves but this is Switzerland.........

Some interesting points being raised on this thread.

My first impression of the flat lands part of east switzerland when I arrived 18 months ago was one of slight disappointment in relation to how the small towns look. Alot of chunky and dated 70's era concrete blocks on view.

However, a few people mentioned correctly that there is not so much available space for development in Switz, so I can understand a little better today why the modular looking apartment blocks are continuing to go up.

In relation to how nice the building looks, sometimes you see nice new apartments however these generally don't look as nice as say a 200 year old farm house. But they are many times more practical. I don't think its possible for the residents of Switz to all live in an idyllic traditional swiss house. There is not enough space and too many people.

Working as a structural engineer I have spent a huge amount of time criticising architects (often unfairly) and I have some sympathy for their profession in this thread. An architect might have an idea for the most stunning development possible but the property developer that commissioned him or her will have different ideas that are governed purely by profit. At the end of the day, an architect has to get paid so he or she will often make some compromise between their ideal and the clients demands. The you have to factor in the point above RE space and people and available resources.

Finally, someone mentioned the use of a girder as decoration. In my experience, the use of a structural element purely as decoration is extremely rare. I have never encountered it personally.

OK. I know of nothing in Switzerland that quite matches this for "structural" elements as decoration but existing structural elements can be decorative like this . In England, the mock Tudor style (planks of wood nailed on the outside to give the appearance of old beams) is pure decoration as is the common practice here with mock beams in restaurants to give an atmosphere of tradition.

I think that building would never pass the bar in Switzerland.

One country that I think does get modern buildings right is The Netherlands. Similarly to Switzerland, they need to cram a lot of people into little space. But they don't take that as an excuse to put people in concrete boxes. I'm always positively surprised by what i see there. They try to vary shapes and forms rather than having a "one design fits all needs" approach, and make much more use of materials that are softer on the eye such as bricks and even timber.

That's good to know about. Nevertheless I've seen some blatant disregard for perfectly habitable and charming early 20C apartments along Seefeldstr, near Kreuzstr. raized to the ground about 15 years ago to be replaced with anonymous tasteless charmless white faced concrete apartment blocks - of course, commanding higher rents, which is the fundamental motivation in these ongoing massacres of Zurich city.

They do mediocrity really well - many modern buildings are built with excellent quality, triple glazing (doesn't it remind you of Gillette with all the blades) really comfortable. At the same time they all look the same..

Well the castle does seem to have a nice new coat of paint. Wonder how much that cost..?