The supposed Swiss ''quality'' of life

CHF 4,600 netto isn't too bad for a researcher although it might be higher it certain fields where industry sponsorship is higher.

Like others have said, QOL has more to do with what is amongst the highest public utilities/infrastructure standards that I have come across - clean air, water, environment, fairly genuine democracy for locals, free public schooling of good quality, high quality of food, relatively government interference, ability to eat out once a month, safety just about everywhere and anytime etc. The great thing is that this more or less holds good for the unemployed bum hanging around Stadelhoferplatz to the yuppie bankers who wine and dine at Kronenhalle every other day. And QOL is also relative: could name many countries that afford this for their citizens in general? I guess the Nordics could and they would also be more egalitarian but apart from that, not many others.

For shopping, it is highly recommended that you comparison-shop i.e. check out the Coop-Migros-Denner tradeoffs, then check the budget lines (Prix Garantie, M-Budget etc.), then consider the ALDI's, then consider going across the border by car and shopping for the month in Germany!! Furniture can be purchased from IKEA or used (browse! browse! browse! network! network! network!) because people either give things away or sell them at token prices when they move or replace them. Visit www.toppreise.ch to check out options on new products.

As for the car, you're in the student community - borrow or pool with others for the shopping.

On the other side, you're right: it is amongst the most expensive countries in the world. Not just highest on QOL but also COL (Cost Of Living) - Switzerland is a benchmark for both. The one gray area on QOL for me has been the cost of housing - that really can be very high in the Zurich area for low-middle class homes. There are some work arounds for students and the lower-to-middle income groups i.e. apply for government managed homes (Stadthaus), property development communities (Genossenschaftsrwohnung - the deposit is 2x higher though). Another thing I'd question is the "low stress" belief, I think people can get worked up about next to nothing at times here, there's a lot of drug taking (perceivable amounts of cocaine in samples of water) and the bankers are known to indulge themselves discreetly. In my first job (that I quit without having another lined up), I worked 14 hour days and weekends 30% of the time at least.

It is a capitalist country despite what some across the Atlantic might think and wealth does concentrate to a high degree (something like 45% with top 5% or something like that), so you'll see some of the disparity, corruption, greediness, discrimination etc. that comes with it in your daily life. It's a systemic evil and the system needs adjusting. That said, in Switzerland, it's like the same system but with the ground zero being considerably above many other "wealthy" countries - the bar for basics is just much higher.

That said is chicken really CHF 40 per kilo?? I think you mean red meat or fish - that can be expensive but you might be able to get better prices at Kilo Metz (it's a lower priced meat store but might not sell the higher end "cuts").

Where in Holland did you live? I've been to Amsterdam but only as a tourist so I don't know the day-to-day COL. As a tourist, it's damn near Swiss price levels.

Bottom line: CHF 4,600 netto (I presume that you did mean net of all tax and deductions for social benefits) is not the poorhouse for a student/researcher. Talk to your fellows if you haven't already. Students know ways to live cheap and still have a great time.

@ UtkoSwiss: Are you sure he's underpaid? I'm not. I don't think you need (or get to) negotiate a salary for PHD grants. But then again I'm not very "in the know". Further, for those who value virtue, the other party could be reasonably equitable (especially in an academic environment) during the negotiations. This "blaming the victim" idea is so conveniently used I think it should be extended limitlessly - now that would be interesting.

Sorry to have to throw some pessimism into this thread, coming from a veteran of 4 years here in CH... but...

Safety, Security? that was CH about 5 to 10 years ago. It is no longer safe here. There are a multitude of crime gangs here in CH still milking the naiivity of the swiss people. I've been heavily assaulted in unprovoked attacks twice in 4 years. Ive already caught thieves several times red handed at popular summer bathing spots. When i told the swiss people who's valuables I just saved about the thief I just stopped their response was "thats so strange. this never happens here. its is very unusual. we never have to look after out things." I guess they just arent used to looking...

clean water + air. yeah guess cant argue with that. but CH aint the only place in the world with those things and the other places are much cheaper to live in.

Low stress? are you kidding me? Perhaps you live in a tiny village somewhere, which would then make sense, but certainly cant say that about the whole of CH. People here stress about the smallest of things.

Freedom? Whilst this is one of the most democratic nations politically in the world, it is also notorious for its rules and overenforcement thereof... Never in my life have I lived in a place where so many petty rules exist. most people who've lived here for a few years would know what i mean. too many to list, just do a few searches on this forum and you'll soon know.

Now... that being said (and before I start getting groaned at), whilst I agree in part with the OP, that switzerland isnt exactly the super pretty picture everyone imagines when they moved here (including myself), it still has many wonderful things to offer that are unique to this country, will bring one much joy, and often strong enough to persuade one to stay anyway.

One thing I can say about CH is that if you have a good education and are ambitious then there are a tonne of opportunities out there waiting for you and if you strive you shouldnt be on that low wage of yours for too long...

Ok, I really don't get you: What life style do you expect to have as a PhD student? Money does not fall out of the skies, it is typically paid by someone for the work you do. In other words - you get as much as somebody thinks you are of value for him.

As a PhD researcher do you work a nice share of your time for yourself - to get yourself a better education and therefore the chance of better jobs later on. You will not work crazy hours in a function where you generate value for anyone... but probably do some assistant jobs for some professor, depending on your area teach some undergraduate students and overall research some stuff a private company would not pay a lot for, otherwise they'd do so already.

Frankly - up to your masters were you expected to PAY to get that education experience, now you are at a stage that typically government institutions are willing to pay you enough to survive to do some stuff you are interested in... You seem to get about twice what the average intern gets (and there are regularly fresh startes doing an internship AFTER graduation) and you easily get as much as a fresh graduate joining a professional career in Amsterdam - where flats are also hard to get and expensive.

In short: HTFU

Following your logic: Not having enough money leads to stress and lack of security and therefore towards the inevitable planning of a bank robbery.

Almost a week here in Greece and I miss the quality of life in CH

I guess one can define and appreciate the difference between QOL and COL depending on where one has lived.

I was born in a third world country, and my parents had to do a lot of shuffling in order to get out of a country that, while great (as long as you have money or are corrupted enough to get through criminal acts and / or political corruption) does not offer any security, health insurance, or even any insurance at all. The COL is high even compared to Switzerland and people move overseas en masse, or they would like to at the very least. The only way you can have QOL is if somehow you get rich and that involves having connections, not always good ones.

I also lived in Canada for 13 years, and while it has many of the benefits Switzerland has, IMHO, I'm better off here. I do agree that there are more criminals and people who abuse the system but, sincerely, which 1st world country doesn't? I also am always very weary of where I put my feet, or where I go, but compared to Dominican Republic or even Montreal in Canada, Basel is quiet and relatively secure. Then again it's not as if I was out every weekend and wearing jewelry all around... though I see plenty of that around when I do go out and most people don't seem to even notice. Health insurance is a drag and EXPENSIVE, but I have a kid, and I'd rather know he will be taken care of right away and deal with the bills (if any) later if he gets sick somehow than any other combination.

I don't know how much a PhD should receive as salary, I do know I make slightly more than the OP as a Computer Support tech. But I am in the dark as far as how good of a salary that is, even for someone with my qualifications. I'm just too busy to care - I guess I will care more about it when / if I need to find another job.

Bottom line, to me, Switzerland has great QOL, COL is high but at least more people can afford it. OP needs definitely more time, and more browsing, in order to get around how to find the deals and where to buy stuff for less.

4600 netto is certainly enough for a single person!

My daughter gets around 3500 brutto, has a car, apartment, regularly travels up north, etc.

Tom

Why did you leave then?

I am not a PhD student but a postdoc researcher i.e. with a PhD.

So yes partially my mistake and that I accepted this job, whole story behind it why i came but obviously I can leave any time I wish.

The salalry for postdocs is not negotiated in academia...i.e in the range of 4.6-5.2k in your pocket after all deductions.

About comments on clean air, safety, clean water that you can find almost everywhere is europe (at least from my experience).

But thanks everybody for positive or negative replies

P.S. The Netherlands is not only Amsterdam.. there are many other cities around which are much cheaper. In Switzerland i dont live in Zurich so as to compare with Amsterdam or The Hague for example.

Work related issues (not a choice), family related issues which if analysed here will take ages.

It is not always an actual choice to go somewhere but I did not thing that it would be that bad (to my experience so far).

But for sure nobody keeps me if i am so unhappy. I just wanted to discuss other people's experience

Where do you live? Are you single?

Honestly, my salary this month was less than 3000CHF net. I have my own flat, a gym membership, and pop off to various places fairly often.

I really don't understand what kind of lifestyle you must be leading on a day to day basis to complain about your quality of life when you have that salary. As I say, this could depend on where you live and if you have anyone else to support. Maybe I'm just used to not having luxuries. *shrugs*

I think this is the spirit! at first everything seems prohibitively expensive, then you discover how many really interesting cultural events or sports activities can be done for free or for a very reasonable price.

grab a few brochures at the train station, tourist office, in the shops, look up local event information page in the city newspaper and watch out for events and festivals.

and enjoy the seasons!

I'm a post-doc, with 6K, but I live in Zurich and have a kid in nursery so have to pay over 1K for that, plus I have a two bed flat, and have to by twice as much food, insurance etc. And flight to the UK for my kid to see her dad.

Really, Don't bother with a furnished place, get unfurnished and get second hand stuff from a broki or here. Stop eating so much meat (humans didn't evolve to eat meat EVERY day), eat more cheese (yum) and use public transport for day to day. If you are working at Uni you should be able to sign up for mobility for when you NEED a car (like buying furniture). Give the place a bit of time and... HTFU.

What i want to say here is not that i have an awfull life or that you cant live with 4.5 k in your pocket.

But when comparing my situation to NL and even Greece, at least my quality of life (as i define it) has declined a lot.

I am not able to comfortably afford to go out at least 1 time a week, or go to a theater for example. Moreover, Have a car that I can use without condition(s) and i am not talking about a mercedes or porsche, something that I could easily in NL and Greece (having a car).

Also for eating..well i respect vegetarians but I am not one neither i want to become and moreover..how could i go to germany or france to buy things when i dont have a car to carry them along??

As for that flat, it is 30 sqm2 (and maybe i say a lot) and it reminded me the time i served at the army. Now if people are used to live in this way, fair enough with me..but please dont call it ''quality'' life but rather a ''basic'' life.

Maybe i exagerrate i dont know..what i have to say is that coming here does not offer me anything better than what i had even in a so called bankrupt country like greece where everything was indeed excessive i.e. going out every day, theatre a couple of times a month at least, car, excursions, perfect flat etc.

Thanks for all the comments though bad or good

P.S. My salary is supposed to support mainly me and occasionally a second adult people.

TO, as others have said: give it some time. Start-up costs are always high and soon you will know how and where to find the best offers.

However, I do understand where you are coming from. My OH is always bragging about his CH-salary and the quality of life here but I have to remind him that although our life is not bad at all, we are not that much better of than in the Netherlands. We are living far from our families and long-term friends, in an apartment instead of a house with garden, own 1 used private car instead of 2 new company cars etc. The main reason is that I can not do the work I used to do there, so I am now on an average salary, whereas it used to be on the high side. Sure it is a nice experience to be here, but you're not necessarily better off here than somewhere else. For me the QOL only comes from the beautiful surroundings, and having nature close by. If you're not interested in that either, CH might not be the place for you.

I think you are doing something wrong. I know Kamarate goes out at least once a week and she makes a lot less than you.

You just need to ease into it.

If you are in a furnished flat, that is the first thing to fix. Get an unfurnished place and then look on here for furniture. People practically give brand new furniture away.

Chicken and pork doesn't cost that much. You have to look around and check out what is on sale. Chicken breast can be found often at 20CHF/kg, the whole chicken for 12-14/kg and legs for 8ish. Pork chops are selling right now for CHF19/kg.

Anyway, you need more time to figure things out. I spent almost 8 months in the Hague and personally I would pick Lausanne over the Hague any day of the week.

I'm not that interested in nature, ie I don't hike or ski. But I love living here. I do love looking at the scenery every day. It makes me smile.

What are you looking for from life here?

Personally i thing we have a great quality of life. Doesnt cost us much either... We eat out, snowboard, golf, swim, go away for weekends etc. All the things we enjoy. . .

Oh and the air is clean and not damp like home! Havent had a chest infection since i moved here. 7 years!!!! HAPPY DAYS

I understand your initial shock. It took us a whole year to get used to the high prices, not always for top quality products or services. We could not even face buying a pizza in a take away as I would refuse to pay 28CHF for just a pizza.

However, salaries are much higher and for the first time in my life I do not have to be worried sick about how I would finance the university studies of my children. Plus, as another EFer has mentioned, you come to Switzerland for something different: the landscape and the outdoor life are quite unique and this is what keeps most expats here. We go a lot less out to restaurants or cinemas, theatres etc...than we used to back in England, but we have a lot healthier lifestyle due to the Summer AND Winter outdoor activities, and bar the ski passes and equipment, a lot of it is free!

It is true that in Geneva for example, with less than 100K for a family of 4, you would have to be creative and resourceful to maintain a "middle class" lifestyle of your home country, whatever that means!

You want to spend 1.6k a month and put the other 3k in your Swiss bank about for a rainy day don't you!

No..normally my ''quota'' would be to put aside ~20% of my net salary something that i would in NL but not in Greece...(5-10%), but over there i was living a ''rich'' lifestyle i,e. i never cared saving.

Now i am at the point to say if my salary is enough to make it...because even if i decide to leave tomorrow...i have given about 600CHF on bureaucracy related issues + 3 months deposit...etc.

Will see how it goes, maybe indeed i do something wrong..like for example i never went to aldis for shopping (thought of ''low'' quality) but maybe coming to switzerland is time to do it.

and as somebody quoted before maybe CH is not the best for what i seek.

Nature, views etc are nice but not a first priority in my life, as i had that elsewhere also .

Maybe i do need some time thank you once more for your comments bad or good