Doc.
When I was 14, I was often alone Friday-Sunday. I had a sparetime job in a Supermarket after school / on saturdays, and I would not loose out on 6-7 hours worth of pocket money, when my parents wanted a weekend in the summerhouse, so when they went to the summerhouse, there was 2 Pizzas in the fridge for me, and I was alone for 2 days.
Doc.
What about the 2 year old.. ?
It may come as a surprise to you, but Swiss mothers love their kids too, and yes they're worried, but it's something our society agrees (and emphasizes - if needed the kindergarten teacher would talk to a mum who insists on bringing her kids with the car) that kids should learn to be independant and responsible. So let's just agree to disagree, but I would raise my kids the same way.
I don't work, but a couple of times now I've given my 10 yr old a key for lunchtime and left him a ready-made sandwich and nibbles, because I've had something to do where I just couldn't make it back for lunchtime (I arrange for my daughter to go to a friend; I wouldn't dream of doing this at her age).
He's comfortable with this, knows the rules and we have good neighbours he could go to if anything happened or if he was simply just lonely; I also phone him at least once just to say hi and see how his morning went.
I'm quite sure that if I did this in the UK I would get reported. Yet I used to go to school by myself from age 8-9, which was a half an hour journey of walking and a public bus ride. And my parents used to leave me alone for some hours, only they didn't give me a key but instead left me playing out, with instructions to go to the neighbours if I needed the loo or a drink or something.
And my mum at age 10 was left in charge of her 5 younger brothers and sisters during the day, and was expected to have the dinner on when her mother got home from work.
In a way, I think it's less dangerous to leave a child alone these days. After all, in previous times that child would have been out and about playing in trees, making rope swings, doing tricks on their bike, teaching themselves woodwork, etc. Now they mostly just watch TV and play computer games.
kodokan
I completely understand the logic behind trying to foster kid's independence, I think you did not understand the fact I see no use for it at a very early age. Or the fact, that theory is not aplicable at all instances, for all kids and parents, for all places people live, etc. It is yet again so black and white, as if just merely the fact somebody has thought of the concept of kid's independence was enough. It is nice there is an idea of it (and trust me, there are aproppriate ways to foster kid's independence), but to stick to it at all times under any conditions is not sensible to me. Of one leaves a small child unattended in a hot car, that has nothing to do with trying to teach it independence, it endangers the child's life and instances like these should not be shrugged off..
Of course the Swiss moms love their kids. Who said something otherwise? I see the difference in abandonement and a perceived lack of state institutions who should follow up. Call that whatever you want, if you have a two month old, you have a child. If you have a child, you don't walk away from it. I was making a point over babies, infants, carelessness, etc. You jump in making comments about 5yrs old, walking to kindy alone, being a brave Tarzan at an early age, how you would raise your kids. Nobody has tried to talk you out of it, why would one, it is completely your own biz. I, and some others, have made a few points about how we feel un/comfortable to leave kids alone and what age. Besides I know you don't even have kids on your own. I am not talking about different attitude to leaving kids alone when they are capable of taking care of themselves. I am talking about small kids, 2mo-whenever, that are not able to deal with some situations and are still left to fend for themselves (I said "whenever" on purpose, since I know kids that aren't capable of doing so even way past the normal age and nobody should push them, they have their own pace, all kids should).
All the local moms I know here would never ever dream of leaving their little kid alone, for a minute. Not even at three, not even at 4. 5 maybe, with other siblings in charge, I still see a lot of moms walking their little ones at 5 to kindy from my window every day, and I completely agree with them. Since, theories on independence aside, we do not live in a particularly safe part of town traffic-wise and they are sensible parents.
I am all for a responsible parenting, I don't need the state to talk into the way my child is being brought up, but on the other hand - to tell a mom to not walk/drive a kid to school? To tell parents to stay away from school premises, etc? That's pretty much an institution involvement to me. We got so much unsolicited advice on parenting from our tactless and undprofessional ped, it is unbelievable. And it was a load of bull, too. To push people insensibly to endanger their kid while the parents disagree, that's a state involvement.
I actually come from a place, where the state involvement means definitely positive outcome, since children are a priority back home, I have to say, there aren't enough of them. They pay us 4years maternity leave, a delivery rent, free healthcare for both the kiddo (until 18) and the mom, subsidized diapers and formula, all baby products (and there is a huge healthy choice of them, too, have you ever checked out the choice here???), free lactation advice up to 3yr of the child, highest quality day care (way higher than here, with a very detailed educational and psy program) for cca 30fr a month. Have you checked how much the day care is here? And how does the price (I think it was 2800 fr a month last time we checked) corresponds with the quality? Don't the babies matter? And how can the moms work when they have to run back and forth for lunch breaks, etc? Kids, moms and elderly do not get a preferential treatment in this society, let's put it this way.
There is a legislature in terms of who is responsible for your child back home, when you are a child care taker, you do not leave your child unatended. If you do, you face charges. The kids there, and I have taught there since 1995, are actually super independent. Nobody picks them up and drives them around, but nobody forces parents into anything, yet the responsibility and sensibility is big. If it ain't you catch a flak, from everyone. The legal responsibility is divided between parents, child care or school. If something happens within the time child is taken care of by somebody, the guardian is taken to be questioned, for the reason of safety, as a reminder that you have to protect the little ones, etc...So, if you show up repeatedly at your ped with a kiddo who is improperly dressed and has a pneumonia couple times of year, you get rightly questioned. And we do not have any darn ZEWI blankets. We do not leave infants alone in the house.
So, the question is still here and that is the reason, actually, why I was thinking out loud about the incident and other instances I saw people endangering their little ones. What is legal and what is not? Is there even a proper legislature in terms of responsibility for the kids (leaving them alone, in potentially dangerous situations), at what age, etc.?
I am glad you are Swiss, you will know the correct answer since you know already how you will raise your kids.
I am not talking about dangerous neglect, as this is something I draw the line too, but generally spoken we trust our kids a bit more and don't treat them like babies if they aren't, so calm down. I like the way we do it here, you prefer how it's done elsewhere, fine. I guess you have travelled, so you should know that kids are very independant elsewhere too, and I think that's a good thing. You can only shelter kids so much from reality, and I would try to recreate a similar environment to where I grew up.
btw - I thought the whole point of groaning was to show your disagreement with people. I consider groans from people who disagree with me (who are therefore total morons) a badge of honour.
But seriously, does anyone know what the 'legal' obligations are here ? At what point does it become socially unacceptable...
I know my daughter got accidentally stuck outside our apartment in the snow in our first winter here - she was one bus ahead of me and I had the baby/stroller...by the time I got there the neighbour had had a chat with her, organised a pen and paper and they were going to write a note and leave it on our front door to say where she was...
Of course kids are independent elsewhere, even when their parents are not pushed into doing something their common sense goes against. In fact, I consider having a kid walk to school just a comple formality, the kid can be totally not independent, but actually manage to find his way to school alone.
The lack of legislature for me simply means, the kids safety is not valued. My point was, it is not a question of trust. We are talking about completely different things. If there are negligent parents, there need to be ways to bring them to account for their lack of care. And you were right, I cannot accept the way different culture is raising their kids, if the kids are forgotten in the car, travel without car seats, are abandoned in the house alone before they are even 3, etc..I do not think anyone should accept that. It is not a question of culture but stupidity and neglect of a few individuals, I already stated that. It becomes a question of culture, when there is not a proper way to go after those negligent parents. Since the culture does not consider it important enough. That's why I would like to know what the legislature is.
Wow what is the point of that? That's crazy. What difference would giving him a key make, she's making it worse by not giving him a key, him climbing through the window attracts more attention than if he just let himself in.
Really? At 14yrs old? That's interesting!
OMG! Really?? LOL! Times have changed a lot!
I don't see much benefit in leaving a young child at home alone. There are lots of other ways to teach independence and if something happened, I'd never ever get over it.
I know some women who safeguard their jewelry better than their kids - that's my rule of thumb. Would I leave a precious piece of jewelry alone and unattended? No. How much more precious is a child?!!
As a mum to 2 young ones, I sometimes leave my 8-month old sleeping while I drop/pick up the older 1 of at KK, at trip of 10 min, but I devised a system where my homephone is in front of the babymonitor and is connected to my mobile, so while in the car, I hear whats (not) going on. I only can do this because the baby is a very sound sleeper and is like a clock. I would never leave my older home home alone, they can climb out of bed, wander around, you never know. And in the car, only when I'm paying for gas and I see them from the cashregister at all times. I also carry a card in my wallet saying I have 2 children and who to call. The problem I think is not always a fire, but more, what happens if something happens to you while you are out and no-one knows you have children who are alone at home. I also always tell someone I am gone and my child is sleeping at home.
As a child, I once woke up and couldnt find my parents (who were playing cards somewhere down the street...) and when I couldnt find them in the house, I just opened the front door, at midnight, left it open and left my baby sister home alone asleep, while I roamed the neighbourhood trying to find them, until I was picked up by the police and my parents were told to "next time, lock the front door with the key"...but these were the 70's...
I don't like the idea of leaving children home alone. They fight enough as it is right in front of me, are they going to be easy going relaxed little guys when I am not here?
I don't doubt that children in some places in the world are given the responsibilites to work in factories, make textiles, or work in garbage dumps searching for recyclables for pennies on the dollar, that doesn't make it right either; or their firts choice for their parents. I am not saying that it is that way in Switzerland.
Yet, it's not for me. I don't want to leave my kids at home.
My brother-in-law's brother did this when he was a kid as well. He fell from that window and died hitting the ground. There weren't any parents around. Different circumstance, but...