Thanks - all really interesting context. Feels like most evangelical activity happens outside the reformed churches - which focus a lot on civic religion, etc and is more liberal?
Also - seems like religion is very private here? Not something you'd talk to a workmate/neighbour about - unlike in the US or even Germany.
Wanted to ask about the catholic/protestant thing? I'm sure it varies by region, urban vs rural, etc - but is this still important in Switzerland at all?
I know it was traditionally and I'm sure tolerance is good (not like Nothern Ireland) - but do folks intermarry, vote for different parties?
Also, in Germany and Netherlands and in Europe generally, Catholics are generally much more observant than protestants. Is this true in Switzerland?
I'm not sure where you got the "liberal" part of it. I don't necessarily agree. If anything, controversy is to be avoided here whenever at all possible.
I have co-workers who have no qualms about witnessing and sharing their faiths at work. They are pretty well accepted by others. There are a few anti-christians who resent them, but they expect it and not bothered by it at all.
CVP is mainly a catholic party. There are also reformed, evangelical and other christian parties. But when they get to the end of crucial issues, they chip in and support the CVP platform.
I don't know of anyone who based their marriage on someone else's religious affiliation. There is even a high rate of inter-national marriages here.
so basically you're saying, the middle class has good practical reasons for restricting Sunday trading, but finds it useful to hide behind religion when justifying these? So then this isn't really a religious argument at all but many find it practical to consider it as such?
No, I'm saying religion and politics do correllate here.
That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation, isn't it??
What about those people who either a) need the money to support their families so would welcome the extra hours or b) are young free and single and can choose to take their days off whenever it suits them?
No.
I haven't been hearing the SP asking for longer work hours, have you?
When I said that religion and politics don't correlate I meant that you don't find any significant correlation between a person's religous and political opinions in the way you would, for example, in the USA. For example: although the CVP is very much rooted in Catholic traditions through its history, you cannot in urban areas by any means say that most Catholics vote CVP, or that most CVP voters are practicising Catholics or indeed even nominal Catholics. You can find all political shades in all major churches and all religious denominations in the major parties.
Most politicians, even those from Christian parties, keep God out of politics and out of their speeches.
That wasn't my point . You generalised that:
How do you know this? I've worked for companies where employees have jumped at the chance to work Sundays.
I think you'll find it's the Unions who are the biggest adversaries to Sunday shopping.
I think the laws have been slackened further in the last year or so, no? More seems to be open and you can buy stuff like washing powder and other cleaning materials from the railway station Migros and Coops.
Personally I think it's nice that the shops are shut one day a week whether it's for religious reasons or political - nice that everything is a bit quieter and more chance of a parking space .
We're not talking about the US, we're talking about Switzerland.
The Christian parties have platforms that promote Christian values. It is often the case that those interests may parallel another party's platform, so they cooperate on those issues. An example is how the CVP and SP may share common interests in humanitarian issues. So there is inherent correlation between religious and political issues.
Once again, you missed the point. The dynamics of politics here are such that the worker's parties would rather not allow shopping on Sundays.
Look, take it from Oldhand:
Look, I get it. You're Anti-Christian. But I didn't really take this thread as a platform for propoganda, but for discussing the OP's questions. Frankly, you are all too predictable and kind of thick headed. You also bore me. So don't mind me if I don't respond to meaningless diversions.
From people's posts, it appeared that the Cantonal "offical" protestant churches theology and approach _in general_ are liberal and less likely to have a sharper edge associated with more conservative/evangelical brands of religion (for example, person talked about focus on civility and Aesop's fables in offical school religious teaching). Doesn't feel there's much hard-line focus on the exclusivity of belief system's claim on the truth?
Avoidance of controversy might explain some of this. A conseravative catholic message (e.g. "No salvation outside the church" or concepts of mortal sin that endangers people's souls) or an evangelical protestant message (e.g. "I am the way, the truth and the light - and no one comes to the father except through me") are very likely to offend people outside this group. In my experience too, conversative catholics/evangelical protestants are much less likely to marry outside their group (e.g. concept of being "unequally yoked" with an "unbeliever").
A softer "be a nice person" approach focused on good behaviour will not cause much controversy).
Liberal theology can also be controversial (e.g. support for church blessings of gay marriage in the US) but tends to be less so in modern western societies.
Again - interested to know if this is wrong? Is there a strong evangelical/conservative presence in the official cantonal reformed churches?
Right. Of course not all Americans understand the term the same way (else we wouldn't argue among ourselves so much about whether America is, isn't or ever was) but as I've already cheerfully admitted to overgeneralizing, I'm going to keep right on.
Americans who think America is-or-has-recently-been a "Christian country" typically have in mind some agglomerate of the following:
1) The Pilgrims were Christians
2) The Founding Fathers were Christians
2b) The principles and ideals reflected in the basic national documents are Christian principles and ideals
3) The majority of Americans have always self-identified as Christians
4) Christian references are widespread in public life (on the money, in courthouses, in politicians' speeches, etc.)
All of these are regarded as evidence for its having been a Christian country in the past, and also as cultural touchstones to help it stay one in the future. Any move to eliminate public references (e.g. Ten Commandments in courthouses) is met with vigorous protest, most of which is not really in support of those particular symbols (if they weren't there, nobody would be seeking to institute them), but against their removal and what that would symbolize.
Americans who don't think America is-or-has-recently-been a "Christian country" don't tend to use the phrase much at all, in my experience - except when arguing about it with people who do.
So there you go. Broad strokes, but quite definitely drawn from life. Your turn!
Actually you missed my point which you still didn't manage to respond to. You assumed that everybody wants to stay home with a family on a Sunday and I just made the mistake of asking you how you concluded this sweeping fact but I'll give up now.
I'm not anti any religion but I guess you are in a corner again and that's the easiest, cheapest response you can muster. Once again you have managed to train-wreck another thread about religion and belittled anyone who disagrees with you.
Welcome to the Phos-Show.
This one's going to ignore...
I assume you are talking about Zwingli's church? Or Calvinism as well?
It might interest you to know that Calvinists believe in predetermination, and that a person's salvation is not determined by his free will. So you are not likely to see them going out to convert the rest of the world, because it doesn't neatly fit with their theology.
The hallmark of Zwingli is the belief that a person must work towards his salvation, after he has been given a chance at it. This theology can be seen in Swiss-German work ethics.
I don't think they bother trying to "convert" other people in the same way other denominations believe they should. They may believe a person is destined to burn in hell, but they may not necessarily do much about it. I could be wrong. My only experience with them is that their main concerns are in keeping "their ways" running well.
Just as a clarification - German and Swiss Baptists tend to have Anabaptist roots (the folks Zwingli chased out,) while Baptists in the Anglo world mostly trace their roots back to the Puritan Separatists in England.
Anabaptist denominations in the US are the Amish, Mennonites and Brethren... lots of all three around where I grew up.
So there's a distinction between the Swiss-German reformed "Zwigli" and the French "Calvinist" church?
Interesting point on predestination reducing focus on mission/converting others. Even with beliefs in predestination- presbyterians from the English speaking world were huge as missionaries. Many Southern Baptists in the US also believe in predestination - but evangelize intensively. I've never worked out why However, other calvinist churches - even when conservative- didn't outreach to outsiders (e.g. Dutch reformed in South Africa).
Yes, they are quite broad. I have heard these claims, but often made by politicians or TV evangelists. I hope it doesn't surprise you to know that they don't necessarily speak for everybody.
Remember that the pilgrims were fleeing religious persecution. The Declaration of Independence is clearly premised on God. Yet one of the hallmarks of the Constitution is the separation of Church and State.
While this ambiguity promotes all kinds of claims by politicians and power-mongers, we don't even have a state-sponsored religion. But Switzerland does.
But the Puritan Separatists in England can be traced back to the Anabaptists, no?