Who is Black Peter?

Daily Life, Swiss News and General Topics
21
Hey, I'm not saying it's a good thing! Quite the reverse!

22
I also heard that first in our local sports hall. It was a parents/kids gymnastics or something. I cracked up. shocking.

The game actually reminded me of "British Bulldog". Have you ever played?

23
Oh dear. You don't want to know what the Swiss German name for black people is.

I cringe every time I hear it and give a short speech that basically goes:

Me: "Don't ever say that in the US. They'll kick you out of the country and brand you a bonafide racist."

Them: "But we don't mean it that way. It's what we've been saying for centuries."

Me: "I understand that but in the US and other parts of the world it could cause you a lot of trouble."

24
So what is it?

25
Please dont tell me its Gollywog.

26
Neger. A derivative from Negro. But it sounds similar to nigger.

27
This is the correct answer: If you get stuck with one of the black Jacks, can't remember which one, you are left with the Schwarzer Peter

28
Indeed this is the German expression for Negro, but even here it has not been an acceptable term for years... only the older generation (thinking of my grandmother) and the in-your-face racist crowd would use it these days...

Ever had a "Mohrenkopf" ?

29
From what I understand the game of "black peter" is the same as "old maid" (card game).

30
Yes, indeed. And I cringe as well.

31
Man, I'm glad I'm not Arnold. He must have got his balls busted as a kid. No wonder he got into weightlifting.

32
yes, jummy

33
Schmutzli / Black Peter

Yes.

Transition of the Black Peter story over time through tamed-devil assistant,

to southern European travelling companion, to Moor-ish, to current look.

You said it!

.

34
Ok, just to make things clear:

"Schwarzer Peter": Card game, the loser gets some black color into his face as a punishment. This has nothing to do with racism, but symbolizes the smut from a chimney.

"Schwarzer Mann": A animal like wild monster, parents used in the past to scare children. "If you do not tidy up your room, the black man will come and get you". Has nothing to do with Africans, but probabli with "Schmutzli" or "Knecht Ruprecht" as I knew him in Germany.

"Zwarte Piet": is the helper of Saint Niclaus in the Netherlands and has nothing to do with the two above. Is dressed in moorish clothes and clearly a friendly helper similar to the elves in the US. Might be "weird" to look at today, but as they bring the presents "from far away by ship", I do not think it is essentially racists to dress them in the way people who came from far away by ship to the Netherlands did.

35
For the record, the profession of chimney sweep is alive and well in Switzerland. One came to service my cousin's oil-heated (former) farmhouse in Winterthur just last month while I was visiting there. They may no longer physically climb up and down chimneys, but they still come and scrub them out. This guy was dressed in black, had the usual brushes, and a modern vacuum system built into his van.

36
My uncle actually still is a chimney sweeper....

The Three Kings day will be next I guess.... they usually look similar to zwarte piet....

37
Having lived in the Netherlands and Switzerland, I find the similarities between the Zwarte Piet/Schwarze Peter figure fascinating. There is clearly a link between the two figures, and while I'm no expert in Medieval and Renaissance pan-european folk traditions, I'll take a stab at it.

Sinterklaas and his Moorish helper land in the Netherlands on December 5 of every year on a boat from Spain. Why Spain? Why, because The Netherlands were part of Spain. It was the mid-sixteenth century and Charles V was the Holy Roman Emperor (and the king of Spain). His empire was over 4 million km2, the largest in Christendom, by far. It included the Habsburg empire, Spanish possessions in the Americas, and the Low Countries. Ok, this explains why Sinterklaas comes on a boat from Spain dressed as a bishop, with a Moorish helper. (Remember, the Moors were only expelled from the Iberian peninsula in 1492!)

So, fast forward to Zwarte Piet, who leaves Spanish oranges and little cookies (pepernoten) for the good kids and coal for the bad. If some rugrat has been really atrocious, the option is always open for Zwarte Piet to cart the kid off in his sack to Spain. Dreaded Horror!! Sunny Spain in December!!

Exactly how these historical events all mixed together with the existing folk traditions I don't want to touch. If anyone wants to, please jump in with more information.

In any case, the Sinterklaas tradition traveled down the Rhine corridor to the Swiss, who ingested it into their local customs. This was not an unusual occurrence. The Dutch share a basic dialect form with the Swiss (seeing as they didn't take part in the second major vowel shift of the medieval period) and have historically been linked by trade. Compare also the obvious example of philosophic exchange: Protestantism and Erasmus of Rotterdam.

Where was I?

Yes.

In terms of racist 21st century traditions, the Dutch have got it nailed down with their blackface routines. Tough break for them. How to cherish your local traditions when they are blatantly racist? I haven't seen anything on this level in CH, except of course for the traditional yearly SVP poster invective.

38
Do you have any source that the tradition traveled here from the Netherlands?

Sinterklaas is of course the sames as the Samichlaus here: Saint Nikolaus, former bishop of Myra. It seems that he has in every country some form of devil with him. Maybe the Zwarte Pit looks today like a nice helper, but was back then scary? Ater all he was the enemy, Muslim and had black skin...

39
And from this comes the common term "den schwarzen Peter schieben", meaning "to pass the buck".

40
can someone clarify the mohrenkopf meaning? especially as they are sold everywhere & i've eaten and bought them - has it such a racist connotation?