Zurich and Stockholm

Yes, there can be some beautiful sunny winter days, but unfortunately the sunny ones are also cold, and there are still plenty of cloudy ones. The winter is just so very, very long. When the weather is still nice and reasonable here, you will already have snow storms in Sweden and you'll have sun, tulips and daffodils here when Stockholm is still in the middle of winter.

Also summers can be miserable, I've seen years when it was raining the most of the summer and temperature rarely got over 20.

So in my opinion, if you move to Stockholm then it's despite of the weather, not because of it.

It does have sea though and the gorgeous archipelago - no, lake is just not the same.

I think it depends largely on the industry you're in as the OH and I talked about this last night since I was rather curious about your impression of English being more common in ZH and, though he did agree with me that the fluency and frequency of English in the under-50 set in Scandinavia is much, much higher than Zurich, that depending on where you are in Zurich, you might hear it more in passing than in Stockholm. Of course, the places I worked in Scandinavia, it seemed effortlessly common that English and the local language would be spoken all the time. I work in the IT sector though which, I think, makes a lot of difference.

I think in IT, Telecom, medical, pharma, finance, etc., industries that are traditionally reliant on expats for talent (and more international in scope) the opportunities are going to be much wider for a non-Swede. Also, I stand by my estimation that Swedish is much easier to learn than Swiss German as I think I was proficient in Swedish in about a year whereas I never really got a handle on Swiss German.

It's too cold and too close to the sea for weeks on end of fog...silver lining perhaps. You want a little bit of cloud cover though as the nights of clear skies can be very, very cold. I'll never forget one evening while walking the dog where it got so cold that the air was squeezing the last bit of moisture out of the air and what resulted was a sparkly 'glitter snow'. It was amazingly beautiful.

As for weather, like everywhere these days, it varies. Last December when we went to Helsinki for xmas, it pissed rain for a few days, including a rather strong gale that took trees down nearby. The lack of snow was rather gloomy, but a month later they were having record snow. Go figure.

On the upside, the culture is quite well adapted for dealing with the climate, i.e. houses are always warm and snug with triple-paned windows, lights to fight the SAD depression, etc. so it's bearable. When all else fails, a Jan/Feb flight to Tenerife works well.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, though, is the food, the glorious scandinavian food (excepting lutefisk and a few others) that I still miss. The array of dairy products alone will amaze you and the breads, etc, are delicious. And, if you can afford it (heavily taxed due to overuse), the local beers can be very tasty. The 'booze cruises' are popular for their duty-free beer/etc sales for this very reason.

Three aspects

First, in Switzerland, while English in the past 50 years moved up heavily, French still has its importance generally, and Italian still is important in fields like construction, craft (craftsmen), all activity in factory workshops plus many services. I do not believe that either French or German have a comparable position in Sweden

Second, many people who live in German speaking Switzerland only have a real command of Standard German, and in regard to the dialect more or less improvise point-to-point wise. That German is fragmented (not only in Switzerland) into so many different dialects (Dialekte, Mundarten, Akzente) may be complicated but is the simple result of a language which only got a bit "unified" by Martin Luther and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe and Emperor Wilhelm II and the Duden Kommission

Third, you mention IT, Telecom, medical, pharma, finance, etc., industries that are traditionally reliant on expats . These industries "traditionally" did NOT depend on immigrants, while factory-workshops, construction-companies, crafts-service-providers, and the waste-disposal-services DID ! The industries you mention only became dependant on immigrants when A) the HQs in Switzerland became much larger than the national economy as such B) the workforce started to decline due to the generation change. But even in those industries, it is not exactly as you describe it. Medical services ? Many doctors and both male and female nurses are from Germany, and have the advantage already to speak the language. Many other people in the medical field will rather speak Italian than English. Yes, finance and IT and Telecom to a heavy extent rely on the English speaking expats. The pharma industry with its centre around Basel however is split between Swiss&Germans, English-speakers and French-speakers

3-b : sizeable immigrants communities like the Kosovari, the Portuguese and the Turks generally are not exactly English speaking but either German or Italian or Italian&German

Let's add that I for two decades made hundreds of phone-calls to the Nordic countries and while at airlines in Iceland and Norway almost everybody spoke English fairly well, I was, in regard to English, not exactly impressed by the Swedes and rather horrified by the Finns. The Danes generally spoke rather German than English (obvious reasons)

I before taking up the job mentioned had heard a lot of what I now see on EF, and no longer believe in the Samichlaus !

Oh, Wolli, sometimes I think you parry just to parry. Basically, you're saying the same thing I said which is...Germans speak German. Ja.

Last I checked, Germans are still expats in Switzerland. The shortage of nurses everywhere is going to make things interesting with an aging population. Lots of them are going to come from Eastern Bloc or, as I recently read in the Finnish news, Spain and Greece since they can offer more money and job security. They're even fast tracking them on language skills.

Considering the number of folks here from those three industries, English certainly isn't a liability in these fields.

I'm not sure which two decades are in question, but in the last 20 years Sweden and Finland both have come along. I'm trying to remember the details of a story I read in the last year or so about Finland considering scuppering the Swedish requirement since so many kids choose English as their third language (and, let's face it, much more useful language long-term) so that they could start it earlier as a second language choice rather than the third. At least in the cities, anyone 40 or younger is almost guaranteed to have a reasonable grasp of English, particularly because they don't dub any of the movies or TV programmes.

No, Sweden and Finland not only came along, both countries overall were successful as was Switzerland. And also in Switzerland, most people 40 or younger have a reasonable grasp of English. The permanent dubbing of movies IS a mistake, but far worse is the "Dialekt-tümelei" in Swiss radio stations.

Germans and Austrians of course are foreigners here, but speak the majority language here already. And they know from home that local dialects differ, more or less, usually more

I had for many years a dentist of Bulgarian origin, and now a dentist of Polish origin with aides of Czech and Finnish and German origin, the physio-therapist I had in 2002 was of Finnish origin, and the male nurse who gives the monthly injection has the same name as the first Imperial president after WW-I. So that this is obvious

But to repeat, the position of English in Sweden is NOT rivalled, while the position of English in German speaking Switzerland clearly IS. You share the notion of many Americans and Brits simply to ignore the still existing relevance of French and Italian in German speaking Switzerland. Which simply is wrong.

When in Stockholm I recommend getting a tent and provisions, get a ferry out to the archipelago, hire a kayak and go island hopping and camp wild. You could in theory go for months without exhausting the possibilities ... the archipelago is huge.

I'm not sure we're disagreeing here. I don't discount the French and Italian but am highlighting that Sweden, along with it's Nordic neighbors, are small countries who were not colonials and therefore have a language that is much smaller in scope than the 'Big 4' (German, French, Italian and Spanish) and so depend more on English and other languages to communicate with non-Swedish. They don't have the same sort of luxury or attitude when it comes to tourists or expats to expect the local language.