Air conditioner question

Accomodation, House and Garden
1
So here's a question - where is the line drawn on which a/c units need authorisation?

i.e. my understanding is:

* single mobile unit - no authorisation

* split mobile unit - no authorisation

* split installed unit - authorisation

So if I take a split unit (many of which come pre-filled nowadays) and don't screw it to the wall, but rest it on top of a wardrobe + balcony - would that require authorisation?

Of if I take a mobile split unit, and screw that to the wall indoors (balcony outdoor) - would that require authorisation?

Running 2x mobile units right now (elderly parents that I would rather don't become part of the annual deaths due to heat statistic) - and trying to see how to make this more efficient...

2
Hi Spinal,

I'm in the process of getting A/C installation quotes. The company I am using is called Climazon.ch.

To answer your question, permission is only needed for a big units above 45db sound levels when the AC is running flat out at maximum cooling. Then you factor in how far away are your neighbors and the distance to the edge of your property boundary from the Fan location. This is because the sound is measured at just 1 meter from the fan in the spec sheet. But what if your neighbours are 20 meters away ? They wont hear anything. So maybe you consider something stronger. They also have 14kw 16kw and 18kw versions.

The best AC unit I could find from Climazon thats rated maxmium 45db was only 9.3kw / 6kw. 7500fr installed with one wall unit upstairs or 9600fr for 2 wall units, one on each floor. This is the Mitsubushi Diamond Star and has an optional water heater that I am considering called Ecodan. It comes with either a 3 or 5 circuit splitter. In silent mode it only makes 19db. But power is half.

What does 9.3kw / 6kw mean and what can it do ?

Air cooling 6kw total shared over multiple wall units.

Air heating 9.3kw total shared over multiple wall units.

Dehumidify

Heat multiple radiator circuits up to 9.3kw and 55c with the pump. More with back up heat sticks turned on.

Heat multiple hot water tanks

Heat underfloor tiles ( bathroom kitchen )

COP is 5.2 to 1. Which means 1kw at 22p gives 5.2kw of heat. At full power 9.3kw uses 1.7kw. In winter once your house is warm you only need a small amount of energy to keep it warm if you are insulated well. So for example my brand new diesel boiler only heats the radiators to 35c at night for 18c set back room temps and about 40 to 42c for 20c room temps in the morning. I run the set back most of the day or the house gets too hot, at 35c radiator temp they are only rated 3.5kw, 42c is 5.6kw So the small Diamond Star Air Con 9.3kw heat pump will probably be ok to keep the house warm in winter by warming up the radiators and not using wall units. For summer it can cool the house from the wall units.

Obviously I will need to turn off the Diesel boiler when the Ecodan is heating up the radiators. We can't have both running at the same time or there will be a clash of KWs.

Performance is something very important to consider. Think of your diesel heating oil boiler like a sports car and the heap pump is like a slow bus.

The diesel boiler will warm up the radiators from cold to 50c in about 40 mins and by 1 hr they will be 60c +. Your house can warm up very quickly with diesel heating oil. But I don't know how strong or how quickly the Ecodan responds until I install it and try it out. I think it will be slower than diesel.

It can not do cooling and heating at the same time. This sounds a bit dumb to say but its only one direction at a time. Forwards or Backwards not both. In summer if you have cooling on, you can't also heat up a hot water tank while its in cooling mode.

In winter it can heat up 5 circuits in a mix of Radiators and Hot water. But there is a problem to consider, for some reason Mitsubushi programmed a hot water priority into the Ecodan and splitter.

If you are from the UK then a Gas heating system can do both at the same time. Reheat a hotwater tank while keeping the radiators warm. This Mitsubushi system will turn off all the radiators everytime someone takes a shower and the hotwater tank needs refilling it diverts 100% of the energy to refill the hotwater tank. After 1hr the radiators will be cold.

If the plumber can't by pass this non sence I will have to keep my diesel boiler just to heat up the hot water tank. I don't want radiators turning off for 2 or 3 hours every morning and evening while people are taking a bath or shower.

By comparison my neighbors spent 100,000 fr on a ground heat pump 2 years ago. This ground pump cant do Air Conditioning or Dehumidifying. And its a bit of a gas guzzler, the COP is 3 to 1. He said his electric bill increased by 3000 fr per year after he also connected his swimming pool and EKZ increased their prices. In total he is now using over 6000 fr of electric per year. Hes very pissed off about this, he invested 100k and afterwards his electric running costs are more than diesel used to be.

And his house is now too hot in winter and summer.

Hopefully with a highly efficient Diamond Star I will have AC for summer and low cost heating in winter.

I hope this helps.

Derek

3
....and you work for who, Derek ?

4

Thanks Derek

Fairly familiar with a/c technology, have installed a few in my time, and still have most of the kit in a box somewhere, so was planning on a self-install (assuming I can find R32, or at least a system that is prefilled and only needs vacuuming). This means that the full cost of the system would be <500chf per floor.

After some research yesterday, it seems that (like always) every canton & gemeinde has different rules as to what is allowed… so I need to drop my gemeinde an email and ask…

Will report back once I have details

Edit, just had a look at their site; they are substantially more expensive for some things than other places.

e.g.
CHF 1950 vs 1579 for this split unit:

https://www.climazon.ch/mobile-split…mgrosse-140-m3

https://www.frankenspalter.ch/de/arg…erat-4-kw.html

5
So your neighbour paid at least twice the going price. He decided to connect his swimming pool, which clearly overloads the system (all the information advises against this) and will consume a huge amount of energy depending on how long he heats it for.

If his house is too hot in winter, he needs to turn the heating down!

6

Hi Steve,

I think you may find that since covid, central banks printed massive amounts of money during a supply side crunch, prices have risen dramatically in some sectors including heat pumps and solar panels. It was a big policy error called creating stagflation on purpose. My neighbour told me in 2018 he was quoted 62,000fr for a similar system that he now had to spend 100,000 fr for, 5 years later.

I don't believe the inflation numbers are accurate, From what I can see they are understating true price increases. EKZ increased electricity overnight from 13p to 19.5p in Zurich. That's a 50% increase in one year. Bread in Migros and Co-op was 1fr for a small loaf in 2019, have a look today and its over 2fr. So how can Swiss inflation be 3% ?

Regarding over loading the system, yes you are right if he wanted to turn on the HW cylinder, the radiators and the pool all at the same time he would probably not have enough KWs to heat the pool to a decent temp, especially in winter. But it looks like he is only turning on the pool from May to September when he also turns off the radiators. Iam curious to find out how much this years electric bill will be after the 50% increase in prices by EKZ. previous reading last October for 2022 was for 6000fr.

Regarding his house being too hot in winter, this is a typical problem of heat pumps because they are very slow to heat up. If HW is needed and the tank becomes empty the system prioritizes HW and turns off the radiators for a while. Then it takes a long time to heat up the radiators. People tend to over compensate and increase the heating temperature settings because they feel cold. To avoid this I will keep my new diesel boiler for the hot water.

In some ways this is a bit of an experiment for me. I would like AC in the house because after we insulated, it became way too hot in summer. When I found out the Ecodan water heater is only going to add a few thousand more to install I thought why not also use the small heat pump in winter just for the radiators. But I have not decided yet on the small 9.3kw pump, I may risk breaking the 45db rules and buy the 14kw pump.

Does anyone know what might happen if I break the rules and choose a pump with 49db ? I don't think anyone is close enough to be effected. Could I be fined ? or worse ?

Thanks

Derek

7

LOL... No I don't work in Air Conditioning or plumbing. But I do have some plumbing and electrical training.

I am an ex banker with an economics degree that became a contrarian investor during my 30s and 40s. Switzerland has good tax breaks for investing. I like Switzerland and moved here many years ago.

Its very important to understand the business cycle and how policy changes today will effect prices in the future. Plus a few economic concepts...

Lets take an example of my contrarian investing. What do you think will happen to coal prices if over 10 years ago Angela Merkel restricts bank lending to coal miners, exploration, power production and the coal industry servicing sector ? while at the same time BRICS countries are expanding there use of coal ? Metallurgic coal for steel and manufacturing industry. And brown coal for power generation.

We have a supply side crunch developing during a build up of demand. At some point prices of coal commodities and the industry will sky rocket 400 to 500%. Profits and Dividend returns will be great.

BUT....

The regular investor or public who is watching and believing the mainstream climate change TV propaganda will be selling their coal related investments. This is fantastic news for a contrarian investor like me because the coal investments became even cheaper to buy. Dirt cheap infact.

I sold a buy to let property in London 6 years ago and put all the money into coal investments. Worked out fantastic. And no CGT in Switzerland. But you do pay taxes on the dividend income.

After I cashed out on coal there were other juicy gains and more to come in the future. But that's for another evening. I am someone that likes to help people and share the knowledge.

Regards

Derek

8
I don't doubt your investment ability.

But:

Investing in coal

Using diesel for central heating ad maybe cooling.

Have you not been listening?

Air pollution kills people

The correlation between use of fossil fuels, rise in CO2 and climate change is proven.

Exactly how the chain of causality runs has yet to be fully determined, but it is almost certainly there - in the end the details do not matter. Our survival does.

9

Hi,

Climazon are expensive. They are selling premium AC units that should last many years and they come to install it. 6 years ago I installed 4 wall units and fans in a holiday villa I own in Algarve. Back then it only cost 2400 euro for everything. It is a Wintair system manufactured by Hisense in China. €2400 for 4 units was dirty cheap compared with the potential 15k fr install here in Switzerland if I also get the Ecodan water heater for radiators and hot water tanks.

By last summer it already needed servicing or a refill of the chemicals. We are only using it for a few weeks of summer holidays, its not my permanent home. In Switzerland i'd prefer something of high quality that will last because I know I will use it a lot.

The Diamond Star is like the Lexus of Air Con. Mitsubushi also have mid level and entry level AC systems that are half the price. But they have a much lower performance to noise ratio and a lower COP efficiency making them a bit of a thirsty gas guzzler.

If you can afford it consider the premium ones with a 5 to 1 COP rating instead of 3 to 1. They also work much better at lower winter temps upto sub minus -15c. The cheaper heat pumps output collapses below plus 4C.

Why is this important ?

If a cheap heat pump has a 3 to 1 COP above +4 c that means it would use 3kw of electricity to make 9kw of heat. But as temps drop to 0c the COP drops to 2 to 1, so heat output drops to 6kw. Now imagine its Jan and freezing -4 or -6c, if the COP drops to 1 to 1 then you only have 3kw of heat which is not enough for a house.

I still have the brand new diesel boiler the previous owner installed before selling me the house. I think its worth keeping long term to cover any periods of extreme cold temps the heat pump cant cope with. Diesel boilers keep making full power regardless of how cold it is outside. If you have a modern diesel heating boiler they have very low emissions, the exhaust gas is mostly steam. Mine is 92% efficient so only 8% is polutionary. The steams comes from a recycled hot exhaust gas exchange that pre heats the incoming return cool water.

I looked at your links, did you notice they are all mid 50s DB noise levels. Above the 45db no permission limit. If your neighbors bedrooms are within 10 meters of the fan they might hear a faint fan sound in summer.

Are you planning to use your AC heat pump in winter to heat up radiators and hot water like I am ?

Once I finalize the quotes and decide 9kw vs 14kw I will send an update. Also after its installed how it performs during winter and how does it compare with diesel performance

Cheers

Derek