Anyone really know Frontalier Zone for non EU for Geneva Canton ?

Hi,

I have spent several hours reading this forum and can find somewhat similar cases, but no answer to the questions I am going to ask now.

I am an American, with long term Carte de Sejour in France via reason of marriage, married to a UK citizen and resident here for over 5 years. I cannot get a UK passport as we have never lived there (he has not since the 1980s) and I can apply now for a French passport and naturalization but was told that thanks to new procedures put in place by Sarkozy it will take up to 4 years to obtain. Obviously, I need a job faster than this.

I'd been working remotely from home in the mountains in the Haute Savoie for the Paris branch of a US company for 12 years, but was made redundant last year when my software was sent to India for 'maintenance' rather than continuing to be developed. I am an IT specialist, not a typical Windows or Java code monkey but a software architect on those kinds of large midrange systems used by banks and pharmaceuticals, worked for IBM previously on the operating system in fact, speak fluent enough French to work in French blah blah blah. So I thought my chances of getting a Swiss work permit were good (and so did my potential employer). There is not much market for this type of job near my in France (though I continue to search) - Geneva is in fact the closest market.

I received a solid work offer from a private bank headquartered in Geneva last October. I know that they honestly did look for someone else for the position, and could not fill it as I actually refused their initial offer in August and came back to me with another offer in October.

After 4 months of waiting, one rejection in December and one appeal with letters from the company heads attesting to their need for me etc. to try to hire me on a G Frontalier permit, the company had the application rejected.

The reason given was that although I have rights to long term French residency by reason of marriage that could not be denied, I apparently live outside the official zone for Frontaliers that are non-EU citizens, and the fact that I am married to an EU citizen, and the company really really needed me and that the travel time is under 1 hour to GVA was irrelevant. The person who wanted to hire me postulated this was more to do with anti-American feelings at the moment due to the banking secrets scandals between the US and Switzerland but I am not entirely sure he is correct - does anyone else have opinions or heard rumours about Americans being targeted for denials ? Does anyone know an American or other non-EU citizen living outside the official 'frontalier zone' for non-EU citizens who has successfully obtained a permit G in the past year or so ? Does anyone know a non-EU person within the official Frontalier zone who was denied a permit G in the past few months ?

In any case, according to the strict letter of the law I am outside the non-EU Frontalier zone. If I want to address that, I would need to establish residency in a town within that zone for 6 months and then a company could attempt again to request a permit G.

But before I bother relocating (involves renting the house we now own to someone else as the market is to crap to sell it, moving 8 years of 'stuff', finding suitable rental accomm. etc.) to a boring town I have no interest in being in apart from finding a job, I would like to be 100% certain that the town I chose is in fact in the legal Frontalier zone, and also to know if I could after all that trouble still be denied for the fact that there is some anti-American sentiment indeed going on or for indeed any other reason ???

For the Canton of Vaud I found an easy to understand list of French towns that they considered Frontalier for Etrangeres on their website. But I am less likely to find work in Lausanne than GVA.

However, I cannot find a similar list of 'valid Frontalier zone' French communes for Geneva. I searched the GVA canton website and it is amazingly sparse in information concerning this. It gives no list of French towns or communes considered Frontalier to the Canton of Geneva, unless they have well hidden the link.

Basically I want to live as far away from Geneva as possible into the Haute Savoie in France so that my husband can still do his job near to where we live now, yet in a town still considered Frontalier. Does anyone know for example if Sallanches, St Martin de Bellevue or Cluses are considered Frontalier to GVA for non-EU citizens ???

Secondly, I have also thought about jetting the idea of working for 'the man' altogether and going out as an independent consultant once my chômage is up in a few months, but as much of my potential business would be in Geneva, this also seems tricky. My business would be a French one as I pay all my income taxes, social charges etc. in France. But, in reading the Swiss laws, apparently I will be discriminated against by the Swiss and not really allowed to practice there more than 90 days per year, even though my company is French-registered, simply because I as the owner am an American national (if I read their law on foreign workers correctly ?).

We cannot move to Geneva as a couple (as I understand it if we did do this I would inherit his rights to work on a permit) as my husband is happy with his work in France and we do not want to leave French health care. We also happen to like the French, so don't bother slagging them off ...

I can't help you but nice quality post. I hope you get the information that helps you to stay in that garlic-stinking.....oh hang on, I'm not allowed to say that and I'd be more than happy to settle in France or Spain later in my life.

Does this private bank have any registered addresses in France? They could employ you in France to do "occasional days" in Geneva.

Hello

Very interesting post...and I can't imagine that geneva refuses you a work permit because you are US...i think it has more to do with the pressure on the job market in general in Geneva.

I think that the best way for you could be to use the new option given by the french authority with the status of "auto-entrepreneur". You can have your own small company and deliver services to a swiss company (if the bank agrees to make such a deal with you). The only limitation is that you should not make more than 80'000 euros turnover (for fiscal reasons). Foreigners with a "permis de sejour" in France can be auto-entrepreneur and deliver services in Switzerland (as far as I know there is no limitation on the 90 hours from swiss side: it's a crossborder service agreement).

You can check this link for more information (it's in french):

http://blog.auto-entrepreneur.cci.fr/

and ask the local Chamber of Commerce in Annecy, Chambery or any other one in your area. Wish you the best and keep your fighting spirit

Hi the auto entrepreneur seems designed for merchants over the internet or selling items they make at home. They have a limit 80,300€ per year. However, the limit on service providers is 32,000 € ... not terribly attractive, frankly.

"Pour des prestations de services, l'auto-entrepreneurs ne doit pas dépasser un CA de 32 100€"

I mentioned something similar to this in an e-mail last week to them, but no response from them so far, as I think they need to move on after trying to fill this position with me since September/October. My suggestion was for them to hire me in France and request to transfer me internally from France to Switzerland rather than the quasi-legal thing you are mentioning. They 100% need in the office there all the time, as that is where the servers are, and there are laws against connecting to them from outside Switzerland via a network for example. So I doubt they have any role for me to work at in France in the meantime, as all their IT is centralized in Geneva.

Truly I am most interested in finding out if anyone knows the Frontalier zone communes in France for the Geneva area and of any recent experience of non-EU citizens getting (or not) the G permit. I have kind of given up on getting this particular job and am looking down the line towards the future, and setting myself up better so the same denial cannot happen again if I find another offer in Switzerland.

And secondly does anyone knows if I declare myself as Travailleur Independent in France (ie the dead simple sole proprietorship not Ltd or incorporated) (which I do not want to do without knowing that I can make money at it as it has all kinds of tax ramifications and health care re-registration paperwork nightmares associated) am I still looked at as 'non EU' even though my sole proprietorship is in fact fully in the French system.

This may help with the frontalier issue. See links.

However, it seems that with the free movement of people accord, the frontalier zones techncially disappeared in 2007 for eu nationals. But there is still some references to having lived the last 6 months in the zone for G permits. Thus, perhaps this is still in operation for non-EU residents. One doc. notes that in theory the zone is 10 km band around the border, but that it is defined in the Canton accords.

http://etat.geneve.ch/dt/SilverpeasW...chment/Images/

http://etat.geneve.ch/dt/SilverpeasW...chment/Images/

I found that if you are an EU national the 6 month thing does not apply at all - a person from Paris can apply for a G permit and be granted one before deciding to move closer to Geneva and live in Gex for example ... this was on several French Frontalier worker sites and legal sites I came across searching for info for myself. But that is not true for non EU nationals.

I also heard about the mythical 10km zone, but in fact it is going to be validated on a French commune basis ... so where the heck did the list of valid communes for non-EU citizens go ? It in fact was on the GVA canton website several years back when I last informed myself about the rules to work in Geneva as a potential eventuality.

Hi,

I am still hoping that someone has some experience or knowledge on this issue ?? So far no answers have been helpful in directly answering the questions I've asked ... thanks !

Maybe you would do better to contact experts at the tax or consulate offices, perish the thought a general interweb forum would have such specific information.

I am asking if anyone knows where to find the information on the French communes considered to be in the non-EU citizen Frontalier Zone (which used to be published on the GVA canton official website before the 2007 law changed things and abolished the zone for EU nationals, and an example of which STILL is published on the Vaud Canton site for non-EU nationals). Seems stupid that this is not published unless they are just leaving it a grey area on purpose so they can come up with random excuses to deny this permit type. All links referenced to this information in pdf documents I still find online actually in fact go nowhere and get 'file not found' errors.

If you believe you know a valid place to find this information, post a link, e-mail address or phone number rather than useless information like 'a consulate' or 'a tax office' as that doesn't really help too much.

AND also seeking replies regarding if anyone has RECENT EXPERIENCE with being a NON EU citizen getting or not getting the G Frontalier permit in Geneva - what was your situation, location and what was the outcome. This is perhaps more important because I would like to know if it EVER happens at all in practice that non-EU citizens resident in France are granted Frontalier permits.

Let me see, I do own property and have a SARL business in France, and also have earned income here, so can tell you the information is all out there, and relatively straight forward really, you just need to look in the right place. I'll give you a clue though, it isn't here.

You however want to have your cake and eat it... which rarely works, good luck with your hunt.

Maybe find an address near the Swiss border that you can utilise?

Get one & apply; better than looking for documents that may not exist or are not updated?

Did you try this forum?

http://www.grenzgaenger-forum.de/forum/

or this

http://www.grenzgaenger-forum.de/wiki/Hauptseite

Marton

@Papa Goose -- Your post is such a clear and thoughtful response

As there is a permit G for non-EU citizens mentioned on the Geneva canton website, I don't think my questions about this type of permit are out of place on a work permit forum.

On your profile it says you are English, and I am from a non-EU country - so your particular situation (which you made so unclear) has very little to do with mine as you get special rights in Switzerland that I do not. So, you are getting your cake and eating it too as far as I am concerned - enjoy.

@Marton, I don't read German and honestly don't know what it would have to do with the Canton of Geneva which makes it's own rules about the zone that is valid to live in France for a non EU citizen to get a Frontalier permit. Germans are EU nationals and again, have more rights than I do and have a very different more free situation now.

I have lived for a large number of years where I live now in France, have a life established here etc. - I am not going to randomly find an apartment in some other town and then only AFTERWARDS see if it is in a zone that would let me work in Geneva and then find out in fact that even after living in the 'right zone' they STILL won't give me a permit for some other reason they will make up. It would cost me a lot of time and money for nothing.

This is why I am hoping to hear from someone who is a NON EU NATIONAL who has applied for this type of permit recently and what is their experience. If they are not giving out any non-EU Frontalier permits anymore due to the economic situation in Switzerland, then it would be good to know up front.

I have looked at French Frontalier sites for French workers in Switzerland quite a lot (back when I thought I was getting the job at the bank these were quite helpful in telling me about my choices for health care, how to stay on the French system, unemployment rights, retirement benefits etc.).

But, I have yet to find specific information on non EU citizens who work as Frontaliers in Switzerland. Maybe it is only a Swiss work permit category in name and not in practice ???

I only know what I've learnt from five minutes googling and searching this forum. Here's my interprtetation:

After the new bi-lateral rules came in between and EU, non-Eu citizens are still eligible for G permit but it will be at the canton's discretion and your employer will have to show he couldn't hire a Swiss or an EU worker to do the job:

http://www.frontalier.org/emploi-sui...-a-geneve-.htm

It seems that although the requirement to live in the border zone was lifted for EU citizens, non EU citizens still also have to show that they live in the border zone, although I don't know how up to date this site is:

http://www.ge.ch/permis/uk/p_main_tiers_uk.asp

The website doesn't say what constitutes the border zone so maybe the old definition applies:

http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/i8/0.836.934.91.fr.pdf

If you feel like you're running in circles then why not call the Canton Genève Immigration office for a defintive reply:

http://www.ge.ch/permis/uk/contacts_uk.asp

There was some discussion here:

US Citizen marrying EU citizen, commute from france to switzerland??

Not too bright then as someone else found most of the relevant information quite quickly, so I'll make it simple, go to an immegration specialist or the kantonal office in Vaud I'm sure you can find those without help.... or maybe not. Sometimes dealing with people becomes a neccesity to obtain the required out come, and full disclosure of personal info' is required, which I'm sure you don't want to do here. All information for EU and Non Eu is there, but expert guidence to navigate the prohibative system is required especially if you are non EU, as it is easy for something to get lost in translation and bite you later. Hence my council for expert guidence that you seem to think is unhelpful. You also have recourse if someone gets it wrong (thanks Deloitte ZH) as in my case originally, last time I checked 'I got the info' on the EF' doesn't cut to much sway with the authorites on either side of the border.

If every one wanted the cake (cheaper housing/cost in France and no family disturbance) and and eat it higher salary (in CH), and they made it easy everyone would look to do it, wouldn't they. As your keep asking the same question and not getting an answer that suits you, maybe the suggestion of this being the wrong place was correct, and it clearly hasn't occured to you that maybe what you are asking is to narrow and specific for a soloution to be found here.

Hi,

Thanks however what you show me is nothing I did not already find out myself on the forum and already read and has no information pertaining to my questions.

I know the permit G for non EU citizens still exists in theory. I already went through the process and did a lot of research myself before asking the questions and that is outlined in my prior posts.

I am most of all looking for people with recent experience in this themselves, positive or negative to respond to the post for the reasons I stated many times previously - the official word and actual practice of officials are often different.

Unfortunately it seems only overly helpful forum veterans feel the need to respond and send me information I already know of or irrelevant information (and like Papa Goose, groan at me repeatedly for asking questions about work permits on a work permit forum).

Thanks

Papa Goose - I am trying to find a position in GENEVA NOT VAUD. The company trying to hire me DID prove that I had expert skills they had actually been unable to find in Europeans or Swiss in months of a very real head hunting search they performed. I have already been through the whole process since last November if you bothered to read my initial post, which was in fact pretty descriptive of the situation. I was not trying to be a consultant in Geneva and start my own business - I was trying to get a normal job that had been on the market unfilled for quite some time already.

I am sorry I am not more grateful for your lack of ability to understand my desire for a response from someone who has experience in what I am asking about, instead of some EU national living in the country with nothing to tell me except what I already found out from reading the Canton of Geneva website, speaking to the Fiduciare we already used or using Google and this forum or as in your case, making nebulous references to things like SARLs which I already looked into with my accountant and found would be much too expensive for my situation even if I do decide to become a consultant.

My application was accompanied by an 'expert' who was paid by the company who wanted to hire me to get the permit application sorted out, but who obviously was unable to. Whether that was her lack of skill or the Geneva Canton's lack of volonté I have no way to know.

I saw the 'reason' given officially for the rejection, but the opinion of the Swiss man who was going to hire me was that the official reason (not living in the Frontalier Zone) was not the real one and that there was anti-American sentiment going on in what happened - thus my question on a public board to see what is going on with other NON EU citizens out there in the land of Frontaliers.

Hence my annoyance at many replies from well meaning people who do not read what I've already and just re-posted and send me the same information I've already found by reading the forum, as well as giving me information that has nothing to do with my status or just plain old being insulting jerks to me for no particular, such as yourself. I did not ask for you to respond to my post; you are the one who decided it was important enough for you to insult me and pull a superiority act.

I am not looking for an expert here - just someone who has ALREADY BEEN THROUGH IT and has some recent experience to share. Or someone with a useful link, not something to information ALREADY stated in my initial post, which is all I have gotten. I'd rather get no replies or people just saying, your situation is rare, than a bunch of people who think I have never heard of Google before or don't know how to research a forum, and who clearly do not bother to read my initial post, which was very clear about what I'd already done and knew about the issue.

That initial post was actually complimented for being very good and clear. I was trying to NOT WASTE the time of people such as yourself, who had actually nothing new to tell me, and target a response (albeit likely to be rare) from only people who might have shared my situation or knew someone who had been in my situation.

Excuse me for asking on a Swiss work permit board if someone has recently had similar experience or different experience to me around this particular work permit issue - since your situation is nothing like mine, and you have no insights to offer other than to insult me, I question your motives for even replying or your continual need to 'groan' at me for being ungrateful and not grovelling to thank you for pointing out the bloody obvious or what I've already tried myself.

Not sure where else I could try to find people in my same situation as the Cantonal office surely is not going to tell me honestly how they have treated applications similar to mine, and the French Fontalier sites do not have forums.

BTW - TENS OF THOUSANDS of EU national Frontalier workers do exist and it IS in fact quite easy for them to get their Swiss jobs as EU nationals - the process takes a few short weeks for them and is very straightforward - so stop being such a pretentious old fart and intimating that I what I want is somehow 'wrong' or 'extraordinary' compared to you or them.

BTW - I currently live in the area of France with the highest cost of living after Paris, and at the moment sometimes shop in Switzerland because it's often cheaper there than here. The fact is, from where I live, Geneva is the next closest large city to me and large cities are the one that tend to have the headquarters and data centers of corporations.

I already do have the same rights to live and work anywhere in Europe as an EU national due to my long residency and marriage (and thanks to 2003/109/EC ), but Switzerland does not recognize me as anything other than a 'third party national' though I have paid my taxes to an EU country for nearly a decade.

I never imagined there were thousands of people in my situation or there would have already been information out there for me to easily find by researching, but I was hoping for at least one or two to be lurking out there.

What I didn't realise was that there were such absolute asses as yourself on this forum who would decide to go out of their way attack a person for asking a well researched question to see if anyone did happen to have further information that was NOT already on Google.

You never had to reply with your snarky useless nebulous answer in the first place. Having no replies at all to my post could have been my 'answer', but it irks me to have lots of replies that are just repeating links to things I already read or telling me the rules about G permits which I already know about and in fact outlined in my FIRST POST.

If you don't have something useful or relevant to post, then don't bother to answer - how hard is that ? Or are there people like you here that are just forum addicts who feel the need to butt in where they don't have the experience, and insult people asking questions they don't have the answers for, just to give themselves and ego boost ?

Well I have found some studio apartments that are dirt cheap (and dirty), and think I may just buy one and let it out on the sly (preferably to an illegal alien) to get myself considered resident in Annemasse, and try the job market again in 6 months. At worst I'll become a slum lord, and at best I'll get a job out of it in GVA.

Quite frankly, with your attitude, I'd be quite surprised if anybody was willing to help you now.

This is not a "free information for lazy people" service. This is a community, the members of which often provide help of their own free will, for no payment whatsoever.

A little recognition of that fact wouldn't go amiss.

If you already had this:

Then why are you asking this:

And this:

And if you've done this.....:

....what did the Geneva Immigration Office tell you about what constitutes the border zone for non EUs today?

Basically, Grenzgänger/Frontaliers/Frontalieri, have to live in a distance of less than 20 (tolerance 25) kilometers from the Swiss borders, and have to have a permit of permanent residence there. Second, their potential working place in Switzerland has to be within 20 kilometers of the nearest border point. It in case of Geneva is a bit special as there is the Région Genèvoise, a region inside France, connected closely to the Canton of Geneva (agricultural exports incl. "Geneva wines", schools, working, etc). Also non-EU citizens can work as Grenzgänger.

And here the address you have to contact (in order to get the details of the correct office to find out precise details :

[T. 022 327 22 00](callto:+41223272200)

F. 022 327 04 11

Chancellerie d'Etat de la République et Canton de Genève

Rue de l'Hôtel-de-Ville 2

Case postale 3964

1211 Genève 3

Les bureaux sont ouverts au public :

le matin : lundi à vendredi de 8 h à 12 h

l'après-midi : lundi à jeudi de 14 h à 17 h 45, le vendredi de 14 h à 17 h 30

_________________________________________

Thanks for that Wollishofener, but where exactly do you see this information about non EU Frontalier rules that say 20km etc. ? The official response paper my company was sent (and which someone else here mentioned) said I was outside the Frontalier Zone and claimed it to be '10km' but did not specify 10km from where or list a reference paper or law to back up the statement. And also I know this is not the whole story as normally the Swiss must make agreements with French communes, as French communes are actually given money by the Geneva government based on the number of Frontalier workers in Geneva (this I was told by my mairie in fact, and it is because taxes are taken out at the source from your paycheck in Switzerland - some of this money goes back to France in fact) and they used to have a list of these communes published on the Canton of Geneva website.

The Canton of Vaud has maintained a published list of French communes valid for non EU nationals to apply for Frontalier status from, some of which are more than a 2 hour drive from any border in Vaud (due to mountainous roads), and it mentions nothing of how far to the place of work itself. So, I do not think the 20km thing is country wide - I believe each Canton gets to make up it's own rules about what is considered the zone. But I will phone the Canton of Geneva anyhow and see if I can get access to the legal paper stating exactly what the zone is for Geneva now.

As to Papa Goose - no one asked for your opinion on this entire topic - you decided to butt in and insult me for your own egotistical purposes. Sorry you just can't let go and admit you actually don't have the answer to this one. Face it - you are jerk for deciding to attack me for posting a valid question on this forum, and I have called you on the carpet about it and now you don't like it. Waaaaa. Go cry somewhere else. Just try to get a rise out of me with your anti-French racism. Hah.

I think my attitude when I posted here was very good in fact and I provided a very thorough description of what I was looking for so as to not waste my time or anyone elses' by having to pry details out of me etc. for what I wanted to know - I was quite specific. I didn't thank people for useless responses, true - perhaps that is rude but I think it is just American to cut to the point and clarify what exactly you are looking for. If no one knows, then no one knows - but don't call ME stupid because YOU don't know the answer to my question Papa Goose.

I happen to participate on several software forums and detest it when people post questions that you can find the answer to on Google or waste your time by not providing enough details in their post and make you pull it out of them step by step. It was only your (Papa Goose and no one else's) jerky behavior and condescending attitude that impressed me so on this English language forum category about Swiss work permits.

Your racism, xenophobia, snobbery, your superiority complex - all so charming and so very British, really.

I wonder if you were as stroppy with the 'expert' your firm hired who said "it couldn't be done", how familiar does that sound? Also I wonder if your medication is wearing off as it would explain so much....

You don't like the answers you've had here so please feel free to enjoy the other forums you stalk.

I'll bet her attitude fit's well in France DB