I am waiting for 2 quotes so far but wondering if anyone had any good experiences out there with a company they would recommend?
Thanks!
Hi, I am wondering if anyone has worked with a good renovation company in Geneva. I am thinking of possibly renovating a house I inherited and renting it out, it's in pretty old condition inside, and would need things like window replacing, electricity, plumbing, painting, removing carpets and redoing parquet flooring, kitchen, the works, but I would only be looking at a really really basic renovation, nothing lux, just of course, good quality!!
Why not simply sell the house and let someone else renovate it? You are looking at a lot of debts and the need to control all the work as it is done. Builders everywhere are notorious for doing the wrong work and even charging too much.
Thanks, because at the moment I am looking at both my options, selling, or renovating and renting. It's a family house and has some sentiments. So i'm trying to see if there is any possibility in keeping it, but it's not possible to rent in this state, so need to gets some quotes for renovations before I can decide if it's at all possible as a long term plan. Thanks
You probably don't have to do as much as you think. Like windows can stay unless they are falling out. Plumbing also. The electric you have a list of items now, can be sorted one by one. The assumption is you want to stop a negative cash flow until you decide further and learn more.
Thank you! yes I'm trying only to look at the basic stuff. But I guess the windows are not to norm, they are not double glazed, and I've been told they need to be. It's an old house!
It's likely to cost more to renovate than replace......
yes thanks, I'm looking into replacing the windows definitely. waiting on a couple quotes.
Getting builders, plumbers, electricians, etc. to do work on time and at a decent cost is HELL around Geneva.
I really recommend that you think very hard about it before going down this road. Most (OK... make that All) of them are going to be based in France and be juggling multiple individual/developer contracts. The individual always loses as the artisans rush off unexpectedly to fit in with the overall scheme of some large development. Sudden bankruptcies, followed by phoenix-like reincarnations under a new name are also a regular feature.
To summarize: Caveat emptor in spades
You might want an architect to do a total quote as well as tell you what needs doing as a priority. There are also rules on what you can & can't do depending on what zone you live in. If you get an electrician in, he'll make holes so you'll need to get him in before the painter too as one type of workman is going to mess up what the other one has done. There are plumbers that do heating pipes but not the boiler & heating engineers that will also do the boiler & some pipes but not others. It's enough to drive you batty. The electrician that came after we moved tutted, puffed & said half of what we wanted was too much like hard work. He also made a mess + drilled a hole in the wall in the wrong place. Agree with the bankruptcy comment. We have a large job planned & we have heard that the company is likely to go under soon so we've had to start again getting quotes in.
Personal experience - I can recommend a ) & b ) & c ).
This bunch are very disorganised - dispute over their workman taking the boiler apart, putting it back together wrong then lots of visits to try to resolve the problem which was only done by calling in another company then billing us for the time spent by their incompetent workman & this bunch completely refused to listen when various neighbors complained of a variety of problems despite being shown graphic comparisons.
Rules on windows are here .
Also get some advice on what you can put as deductions on your taxes as renovation work is often included.
I agree with Neddy. Have an architect or licensed inspector come and evaluate the condition of the house. There is a world of difference between some rectification work inside and new windows/exterior paint vs a new roof, footings work and said "minor" stuff.
Always a good idea to size up the monster before you draw your sword.
If you look for the regulation, you might not find it, as there probably isn't one. Only recommendations. Are there secondary glazing paines that fit in place of shutters? or two glazing paines screwed together?
You can still drive a 1930s car with 1930s silly indicators, no seat belts, etc.
If a property is rented to multiple families, then things get much more complicated, otherwise, you would be surprised what is allowed, as opposed to what is recommended that you provide.
There are loans from energy efficiency initiatives to replace the windows with ones that conform to the latest standard. The grant is repayable over say 20 years... However you might end up with over priced triple glazed monstrosities.
Thanks ya, I just had some real estate people in and they all told me about the windows. Part of the house, which was renovated the latest has double glazing but apparently the wrong ones .
yes the property would be rented to 2 families, one living there now, but are more then happy with their side of things. I just need to insulate a wall for them to be a touch happier if i renovated and rent the other side. Im getting quotes now to see what I can do, started a few years ago but got overwhelmed by the quotes as they were all super super high. So I'm trying to go elsewhere now and get lower quote.
Thanks, I did have some architects in a few years ago, but they were all recommending me to break walls, and make it a luxury house. I am only interested in doing the basics to make it ready for someone to move it. I don't have the means to do a lux house.
Maybe i can try and search for a licensed inspector. I had some real estates in to tell me what I needed to do to get it up to par for renters in that area.
Most of the work is basic stuff inside, taking off carpets, polishing wooden floors, taking down wallpaper, painting everything white. The windows and a few doors are the biggest work and perhaps the electricity. A new kitchen is the biggest work inside i think.
Many thanks for all this information, I will look through it slowly. Our heating company at the moment is Senalada but have heard of Elco as I think my grandmother used it way back when.
Yes it's in zone Agricole, so that is the hardest so I've heard. I am really looking at the basics, and what i mean by basics is what I need to do to get it ready to rent out. As it is now, it's not rentable, although I'm sure loads of people would move in and be happy to pay a very low rate (that's what I've been told and have been offered) ...but i would prefer not to and to do it properly, as i know the laws are made mostly to protect tenants and not landlords, and I don't want to be screwed in the end for some reason or another.
Exactly. For the kitchen if you keep the location of sinks, drains, etc, even that is really simple and quick to change with no surprises, just bolt the new taps/sink unit onto the old pipes. You can PM me a photo of specific stuff if you want ideas.
Maybe you just need trustable help, like a retired person to take carpets to the dump, paint walls white, etc.
In the German part we have http://www.rentarentner.ch/
and a landlords association that helps with questions, provides rental contracts, etc. http://www.hev-schweiz.ch/ There must be ones for the French part.
You might want to state your budget upfront, so as to not pursue unrealistic goals or get a bunch of overpriced quotes as before. Any enterprise who is going to do it all will likely charge a lot of overhead; having an architect or general contractor is expensive, and definitely outside many peoples budgets. Other option is to oversee the individual works and coordinate yourself, but seems you are not here do do that (?).
Anyhow, having undertaken a number of renovations similar to yours in recent years, here are some ball park figures, to see if your project is realistic. Replacing all windows on a house, 35,000 chf; new kitchen (varies by number and quality of appliances), 40,000 chf (excluding plumbing, tiling, electric reworks); electricity and plumbing varies extensively depending on the works to be undertaken.
Note, you can get a decent kitchen from Ikea, and have them install for extra price, however they do not do electrics, plumbing, tiling, etc... A handyman can likely do the other stuff like polishing floors, painting, etc.. Electrican and plumber to be hired separately and get quotes.
Hornbach has rather good kitchens (actually German Wellman), doors (probably windows as well), flooring and bathroom fixtures and their instalalation prices are very good.
For appliances there is psi24.com that will ship from Germany to Switzerland and will cost you 1/4 of the Swiss price for the exact same appliance.
As an illustration, I've recently equiped a two-bedroom apartment and the costs were:
- kitchen (3.5m linear, glossy white) in price group 4 (one grade less than the most expensive) CHF 7000 for the cabintetry and the wooden counter top, plus CHF 1300 installation
- some EUR 3300 for all the appliances shipping included (good quality Bosch fridge, dishwasher, induction cooktop, oven, microwave, exhaust hood, washer and dryer) -
- the doors were around CHF 450 each installed
- two bathrooms equipped for under CHF 4000 plus around CHF 3000 to have everything installed (some stuff from Hornback and some from reuter.de that also ships to Switzerland)
- hardwood flooring will come to around CHF 110/m2, laminate would be around CHF 60/m2 installed (I'd advise to just lay laminate over you old wooden floors and not waste money on polishing as that is pure labour at Swiss rates)
I can PM you the pictures and the equipment list if you're interested. Since the house is in Geneva Hornbach Etoy will consider it a local zone and delivery and installation will likely be less than what I paid.
You can choose what you want on their internet site and then spend a day at the store to place the order and book the installation.
Hornbach has rather good kitchens (actually German Wellman), doors (probably windows as well), flooring and bathroom fixtures and their instalation prices are very good.
For appliances there is psi24.com that will ship from Germany to Switzerland and will cost you 1/4 of the Swiss price for the exact same appliance.
As an illustration, I've recently equiped a two-bedroom apartment and the costs were:
- kitchen (3.5m linear, glossy white) in price group 4 (one grade less than the most expensive) CHF 7000 for the cabintetry and the wooden counter top, plus CHF 1300 installation
- some EUR 3300 for all the appliances shipping included (good quality Bosch fridge, dishwasher, induction cooktop, oven, microwave, exhaust hood, washer and dryer) -
- the doors were around CHF 450 each installed
- two bathrooms equipped for under CHF 4000 plus around CHF 3000 to have everything installed (some stuff from Hornback and some from reuter.de that also ships to Switzerland)
- hardwood flooring will come to around CHF 110/m2, laminate would be around CHF 60/m2 installed (I'd advise to just lay laminate over your old wooden floors and not waste money on polishing as that is pure labour at Swiss rates)
I can PM you the pictures and the equipment list if you're interested. Since the house is in Geneva Hornbach Etoy will consider it a local zone and delivery and installation will likely be less than what I paid.
You can choose what you want on their internet site and then spend a day at the store to place the order and book the installation.
A rule of thumb I was given on costing a total renovation as you describe was Chf500 per cubic metre of house volume which was close to the mark when all the costs were fully added.
There are not really companies here that manage renovations, this is normally handled by an Architect who then subies the work out. It is tough to get a ball park figure for renovation or rebuild from new. Search out some house forums in Switzerland and use a translator. It depends how much time you have to put into it but I would recommend firstly finding an Architect to do some costings, this will not be for free so get an offer/s first. Alternatively you can get some information on general costings from a bank, UBS or Credit Suisse are probably best as some information will be in English.
Finally depending on location there are houses in Switzerland that are not worth renovating, you will never break even on finances. A lot of people do "to keep it in the family" rather than from any business case again the banks are best to advise on this if you are not completely familiar with the housing market here.
This is not criticism but a makeover of an apartment is a lot different to a house renovation which needs all the utilities, windows, insulation upgraded so costs are not that comparable. Doing the leg work and planning as you have done can bring savings but labour is the expensive part rather than materials, it takes the same time to put in a cheap kitchen as an expensive one. Rather than focus just on costs try to look more at value/quality ratio of what you finish with. Sometimes spending a little bit more gives you a whole lot nicer finish, sometimes not. For example an ex display kitchen is better value than an Ikea kitchen if you can get it to work for you.