C Permit through Partner during Naturalisation

Visas, Permits, Passports and Naturalization
1
I'm married to a C permit holder, who in a few years will be able to apply for ordinary naturalization.

As detailed in many threads I cannot get a C permit by myself despite my 11+ years here in Switzerland, but I may have a chance through my partner but I need some clarification.

I understand that after 5 years of marriage to a C permit holder I can get a C permit (as long as I fulfill the other criteria). I also understand that after 5 years of being married to a Swiss citizen, I can also get a C permit.

Relevant articles below:

FNIA/AIG Art. 42.3

FNIA/AIG Art. 43.5

1. Do these times count from the date of the marriage, or the date of the C permit/naturalization being granted? (I assume the latter)

2. If my partner becomes Swiss in a couple years, would that mean that my timer would reset and I have to wait another 5 years after they became Swiss?

Crawling through the directives and the FNIA/AIG I haven't been able to figure it out. Although I assume the timer would reset, because why not lol

2

You can get Swiss citcenship when you have married a Swiss citizen. However, you did not marry a Swiss citizen, you will be married to a Swiss citizen. This follows directly from the law:

Relevant article is Art. 21 SCA/BüG
For C permit. I assume the 5 year clock starts with getting permit C. It is not clear if the clock rests with getting Swiss citcenship. The SEM directive are silent about that particular topic. However, for early C based on a treaty, the SEM directive specifically says the clock resets when you change citcenship from ex. Italian to German.

If I am not mistaken you currently have a PostDoc-B. Once your husband or wife has C or Swiss Citcenship you should get an open B. Means you will need only two more years to be eligible for permit C.

3
I'm not aiming to get citizenship through marriage, just my C permit. Then I can apply for naturalization the next day on my own merits - Hah, I bet you it resets ...

I have a student B permit and not an open B permit, its the same permit I've held for the past 11 years (last 4+ years as a postdoc). SEM has refused to give me a open B permit despite having made the application for the last 2 years with the support of our HR department and with all the necessary documents.

4

Currently you have your own PostDoc permit B. But once your partner has permit C/Citcenship you have the right to an open permit B based on family reunification.

Art. 42.1 AIG/FNIA
Art. 43.1 AIG/FNIA
This “haben Anspruch” (are entitled to) changes everything. They can no longer deny a regular B. And as you know, after two years on regular B your student and PostDoc years will count. Means you can apply for C based on the 10 year rule (or good integration as you like).

5
Having consulted with a few immigration lawyers, I've been told by each, a change from my student to a family reunification permit will mean that my years as a student will not count towards a C permit any more.

Each lawyer had had experiences where postdocs that got the family reunification permit following a student permit (postdocs) were not allowed to apply for their C's after 2 years because family reunification permits following student permits do not count as a "long stay permit" in the eyes in the SEM. Those folk had to wait at least 5 years after getting the family reunification/open B permit before they could apply for the C permit despite having many years in the country prior to that.

Hence, I have not gone that way.

6
The SEM directive only say you must be working and in possession of a permit B which allows long term residence. A familiiy depended permit B of a permit C/Swiss should certainly be such a permit.

But, how long are you now married to a permit B holder?

7
I completely agree with your first point, unfortunately the authorities apparently disagree with that interpretation when it's following a student permit. The lawyers all said, if someone had held a family permit the whole way there would be no problem but student -> family = not long stay.

Partner has a C, been married coming up 2 years, they have had a C for 1 year now.

8
If you had switch to a family B, two years ago, then the following would apply:

A) You could now try your luck and apply for permit C (lawyer do not decide who gets permit C and regulations constantly change).

B) If denied you could apply in 3 years as you then have 5 years of family B and could apply based on good integration, but also regularly after 10 years. (Study years count for the first 5 years)

I do not see the benefit on staying on your own PostDoc-B. The best you can hope for is that your Employer employs you as a regular employee within the next 12 months and thus triggering the 2 year rule.

9
Two years ago partner had a B permit, also student - so that wouldn't have worked.

Regarding point A.) Yes, or I would have reset my time here in Switzerland and so 9 years down the drain ...

Regarding point B.) Two years ago I had hoped back then that I would get the open B permit since I had been a postdoc for 2 years but the authorities disagreed. Additionally, getting a family B permit when my partner had a student b permit did not guarantee that I would have the right to work - as happened to the partner of a colleague of mine.

Regarding the last point, it's essentially what my employer has been doing for the last 2 years. It is the SEM that disagrees that I'm an employee.

Now, unfortunately to switch to a family dependent permit carries the risk of resetting the clock; therefore I'm looking the other way for the C permit.

10
It appears that you cannot go from a postdoc/student B permit to a C permit directly. Surely, you can easily go from postdoc/student B to dependent (spouse B) then ask for the C permit - and you'll need to then go through the process of whatever is required for a C.

Have you actually been to the local town hall and asked them if you will be able to apply for a C permit based on your current situation ?

I cannot see the disadvantage of asking the authorities to change you over to a dependent B to your C permit holding spouse, unless you don't plan to be married for very long. Fact is, they either count your years as a student/postdoc or not....

I do not think you need to be on a C for a specific number of years before applying for citizenship - it is just that you need to go from B to C then apply for a passport. I do not know if they will take into consideration your number of years on a student visa in Switzerland.

What is your reason for wanting a C permit ?

I am fairly confident that you can go from student B to dependent B then to C permit without resetting the clock. The hurdle is that you cannot be a student in Switzerland for years and years and then get permanent residency.... but as cantonal rules differ, your best source of information really is the local town hall and cantonal office.

I don't think consulting immigration lawyers is the right way to go on this (or necessary). Best to ask your local town hall where you, and your spouse live. As your spouse has a C permit and is very able to to communicate in the local language, she should go to the local town hall and ask them how to help you to also get a C permit.

Really, that's the best i can offer - the local town hall will be the key decision maker/gatekeeper and will certainly provide you with the current rules, in detail, to help you move forward. It also helps if they know you, like you and you are integrated locally. As your wife has a C permit, she knows the process that she needed to go through....

Oh, and in answer to your second question - no the 5 years married thing would not reset if she then moves to citizenship....

11
You don't have to at all if you have a Swiss spouse.

Tom

12
I've been told by multiple lawyers that to go from student -> family reunification, the student years don't count. That is based on their experience applying for those permits for academics who faced the same situation as me and got burned. That route would take 5 years from the moment your on family reunification. So for me, it makes more sense to stick out the other route now i.e. wait ~4 years than to apply now, hope that they allow me to work on the permit, and hope that my years as a student count. It's too many if's and again that is only assuming the law doesn't change in the next 4 years (because it has in the last 11 years to my and many others disadvantage).

I cannot apply for the C permit based on my current situation, the law is clear regardless of what the town authorities say.

To quote the authorities in the Bern Fremdenpolize when a friend of mine applied for an L permit after their PhD:

So they've been less than helpful. When I applied for my B permit 2 years back, they said it was impossible to get another permit because I had been a student for over 8 years ... So they are clueless but again, its not their job to know these things.

For C permit to naturalization, again the law is clear that if you have C, and you've been around for 10 years (regardless of permit) you're in. So I'd make the naturalization application immediately after I get the C permit (provided I've followed the local Gemeinde rules etc).

I have spent well over 1000 francs getting B permits, over 500 francs getting return visas, hundreds of francs in authorisations/attenstations and each year I spend at least 7 working days going to the Gemeinde/City Hall to sort out my B permit application and every single mistake/problem that arises from being in Switzerland for so long. On my B permit, I am not allowed to pull unemployment, I am not allowed to work independently, I am not allowed to start a company, and if I lose my job I have to leave immediately. Plenty of reasons to get a C permit.

Regarding the languages I speak French and German - so communication with the Gemeinde has never been a problem on my end.

Thank you for your suggestions; it is a tricky and odd situation.

13
Resetting the clock in respect to what? Citcenship? No, there you just need a total of 10 years on B and C.

In respect to getting permit C based on marriage with permit C/Swiss? No. Do not see why. If at all, your student permit might not count for that. If they count, then a switch of permit has no influence.

14
Unless your spouse is Swiss, then it's five (or six if you don't live here)

Tom

15
Sorry, to clarify, regarding getting a C permit.

So options:

1. Wait 4 years until 2027 to get a C permit for being married to C permit holder for 5 years.

2. Apply for family reunification now, clock gets reset, wait 5 years to 2028 and apply for C permit hoping my years before now count.

3. Apply for family reunification, clock doesn't reset, wait 2 years until 2025, for the 2 years after student b permit rule counts and apply for C permit then.

4. Wife applies for naturalisation in 2 years, takes 1.5 years, c permit clock resets, and I wait another 5 years until 2032 when I can apply for a c permit after 20 years of living in Switzerland as a "student".

5. Hell freezes over and we have another referdum and I am left to the whims of those new rules.

16
Would switching to a dependent B permit change affect your employment situation (eg. would you then 'lose' your student status ?).

17
To clarify, I'm a researcher and not a student. So the student status means nothing to my employer/work.

But I have heard of Non-EU dependants losing their right to work or at least having to go jump through hoops to get it back.

In short I'm not sure, therefore hesitant on that point too.

18
6. Wife applies for naturalisation in 2 years, takes 1.5 years, and I wait another 5 years until 2032 when I can apply for a facillitated naturalisation after 20 years of living in Switzerland as a "student".

Tom

19
Doesn't work. You must shove in a divorce and remarriage in between this. Facilitated naturalization is only possible when you marry a Swiss, but not when you are married to a Swiss.

20
So options:

1. Wait 4 years until 2027 to get a C permit for being married to C permit holder for 5 years.

1a. Wait 4 years until 2027 apply for C permit just to be told this is not possible on a PostDoc-Permit.

2. Apply for family reunification now, clock gets reset, wait 5 years to 2028 and apply for C. The years before are not relevant as you have 5 years of B. You can either apply based on good integration or family rule. If you apply based on good integration you do not have to worry when spouse changes from C to Swiss.

2a. Apply for family reunification now, clock does not reset, wait 4 years to 2027 and apply for C permit based on family reunifications. [There is no reason why the clock should reset]

3. Apply for family reunification, wait 2 years until 2025, for the 2 years after student b permit rule counts and apply for C permit then. [There is no clock reset in this situation]-

4. Wife applies for naturalisation in 2 years, takes 1.5 years, c permit clock resets, and I wait another 5 years until 2032 when I can apply for a c permit after 20 years of living in Switzerland as a "student" [PostDoc is limited to 8 years. You will have to change to a regular B at some point.].

5. Hell freezes over and we have another referdum and I am left to the whims of those new rules.

From all scenarios above getting a family reunification B gives you the most security, and also the most opportunities, as you can apply for B based on good integration latest in 5 years, plus the possibility to apply based on family reunification in 4 years, plus the possibility to apply in 2 years.