It’s a running joke in this forum (and the previous one) about foreigners who believe they don’t need to learn the local language and can do everything in English.
Maybe these foreigners were not wrong, just too early. It happens that children in ZH are learning English really well. From the NZZ article:
A national report recently gave Zurich young people a pitoyable testimony . In the (French) Listening Comprehension category, only 21 percent of the second and second constituents of students in the canton had the basic competences required. In so-called reading comprehension, this value was even lower (14 percent).
The situation is completely different in the English language skills. There, 72 percent of this group of students achieved the basic skills in terms of listening comprehension. In terms of reading comprehension, it was almost half (49 percent).
In other words, English is not just a “cooler”. The young people in the canton of Zurich can also do it much better than French.
This made me laugh a bit, Mulhouse is 20 km closer than Neuchâtel and Fribourg from Aarau. Basel airport is in France, but let’s talk about Fribourg anyway. From RTS article:
The extracurricular exposition is also of great importance: English is not only a subject of teaching, but also functions as a lingua franca and is strongly embedded in the everyday world of young people – whether through media consumption, music or digital communication. In the German-speaking world, students often have significantly more contact with English than with French. While in cities such as Bern or Fribourg it is still possible to organise regular encounters with Francophone speakers, this is considerably more difficult in regions such as the Aargau or east of it.
It’s weird, I got and keep my job because I brought my (low) French skills to my team at work in a DE speaking canton. A colleague from Alsace, with perfect French and German, has told me I write like a 12 year old. I do what I can. Somehow I manage to work as a bridge across languages. With the ZH parliament decision, there will be less local people able to do this job. Will Switzerland need even more foreigners so they can collaborate across the Röstigraben? Weird…
One of my son’s friends has a French-speaking mother and he won’t speak French with her anymore because it’s apparently “not cool”. She’s gutted. The family is bi-lingual French / Swiss-German but the kids always spoke French with mum, and Swiss German with dad.
I did not vote about that and I live in canton Zurich.
I’m surprised they seem to think they can simply decide about such a thing.
French is a national language and Zurich’s arrogance is prevalent.
In my time we did not have French at school before secundary level (age 13). So an other thing they want to move back to - not quiet - ancient times? Mainly they probably just have difficulties finding and paying good French teachers while every idiot thinks they can teach English.
A big part of Africa speaks French. With the political shifts the die hards should realize that English speaking countries might lose their importance in business too.
i know my kids started learning english in school at a very early age. english was adopted in schools some 15+ years ago. it’s no wonder that the younger generations (at least in zurich) are quite comfortable in english. i have to admit that i have seen zurich being ‘english’ed’ over a generation or two …
Most IT jobs now demand equal levels of local lingo and english.
I also find that many swiss companies with branches across different language regions are switching to english as the preferred company language.
i see this as being more practical/realistic strategy. option to learn a 2nd national language has not been eradicated. important is that people communicate effectively, first. the national pride thing is a matter all on it’s own.
yup, giving up national languages does make it harded to get a job. however, there are many other challenges an ‘immigrant in ch’ faces for leadership positions in Swiss companies (with/out national coverage).
You’ll be hard pressed to find people in your vicinity who are comfortable having a conversation in French. It’s common nowadays that conversations with Swiss Germans and Romands are held in English rather than German or French.
There are lots of foreign kids in Zurich who struggle to learn German. Introducing a new language every 2-3 years (the KiGa in in CH-DE while the school is in DE) leads to a situation when kids don’t know any of it good.
I wish kids started to learn English earlier again (like it was before 2018) and had more German and/or English hours in the primary school instead of early French.
How do kids benefit from the fact that it is one of the national languages? They learn it in the same way as kids in any othe non-french speaking country. My daughter learns French for the 6 years already and their class never had any contact with anyone in the French speaking region. No exchange, no class camp - nothing.
Based on the fact that teenage girls from Romandie answered the questions of the moderator of the talk show in French and didn’t dare to say a word in German (although they were learning it from the 3rd grade), the situation with German in Romandie ist far from perfect as well.
As an English mother tongue Swiss living in French speaking Vaud, who visits Zurich 4 or 5 times a year I can reasonably say that it is just not possible to speak French in Zurich it is impossible to do so.
If Zurich spends money to teach their students French it is simply a waste of money.
Arrogance or pragmatism? Pride? Other social and/or cultural factors, perhaps?
it all depends on a person’s outlook, i would say. Why would a French Swiss refuse to speak with a German Swiss in (swiss) German or vice versa?
I see them conversing in english is a huge statement in itself.
I lost count of how many of these ‘Ich bin / Je suis / Sono …’ pissing contests I had to play as the midddleman / diplomat in professional work settings. For my last 2+ jobs, i was chosen partially because of my willingness to play such diplomat in a professional working environment and mitigate in english.
Personally, I welcome this decision … if you dont want to have a dual language conversation where each speaks his/her own lingo but both understand each other, then please proceed with a 3rd (neutral) language (english) that both speak. let’s not throw knives at each other because we are the same country folks but we are proud of our own language/dialect and you as the same country folk, should be learning my language.
What’s wrong with a 3rd common language that is also globally present. No one is prevented anyone from learning the second national language.
Historically, the arguments from the Germans that ‘those are from the french part, want to align themselves with France…’ etc. etc. I have seen similarly arrogant indications from the french side. As for my experience on those from Ticiono, meny feel treated as the 2nd cousin. These arguments are silly in my opinion, given we now live in a global village …
Language is meant to enhance the communication and help build a bond. It was never really ment to be a tool for friction.
Acceptance is the key, in my opinion.
In the words of Gandhi, there is no path to peace. peace is the path.
Exactly. And perhaps even more relevant, the pupil’s time and motivation.
That’s one possible motivation. Another is that people are simply more comfortable using English, just like Swiss Germans automatically divert from Standard German back to SG. And a third is that you using the other’s mother tongue automatically makes the conversation, and especially negotiations, an uphill battle for you. The three are not equally likely to apply, the higher up in the company hierarchy the more likely the last is to apply.
I am sorry Bowlie, i must disagree with you there – investing money in education is never a waste of money.
This is not just learning a language - it is the whole culture that stands behind.
The Swiss, battled their differences for about 400 years to be a ‘confederation’. Eliminating French is not just eliminating a language, it is a sign of lack of interest in maintaining the strong ties with the other part of the country, and not considering their culture as "primus inter pares’… And when you don’t understand your neighbors, and they become strangers, is when the problems start…
