One thing I have noticed, having been to the Netherlands twice, I have a friend who lives at the Hague, is that if a group of Dutch are with a foreigner or two. Let's say 3 Dutch and one foreigner, the Dutch will generally start speaking English, no problem. English for most Dutch is a second language because they have to learn it in school, as it was explained to me.
Swiss will not speak Hoch Deutsch in this way for the benefit of a foreigner, usually they will speak to each other in dialect, if the foreigner understand or not, if one is nice, they may be translating real-time for the foreigner...
The difference in cultural attitude is interesting.
Interesting...(and no I did not say Swiss or Dutch have to do something but I'm noticing the difference in attitude).
1) I wonder if it is a cultural difference....it might be explained that Dutch are more competent speaking English than Swiss are speaking High German (on average), but I don't believe this. I could be wrong. English is not a national language of the Netherlands, but German (Hoch Deutsch) is a national language of Switzerland, and people do speak it at school.
2) This could be only based on my limited experience in the Netherlands.
3) I wonder if there is a general cultural aversion to anything German as a sign of national identity, but this does not exist in the Netherlands with English...I'm just wondering out loud, I have no real opinion.
I would love to hear opinions from Dutch folks who live in Switzerland.
(Nearly) All English films/programmes in NL are screened in the original language with subititles. With the massive influence of UK and then US TV/films, this means that the Dutch have been and are exposed to a lot of English language. Indeed the predominant accent in NL used to be English, since then the increasing popularity of US TV means there is usually a US twang.
To your point (3): after WWII, many Dutch actively turned away from German (language), so English filled the vaccum. Unlike CH, where Swiss is a dialect of German, NL is a Germanic language but not as closely related (IMO - although I'm sure experts will correct me ). Although their national anthem says something different depending on the translation used...
The Dutch I have spoken to have often been outward looking, aware of their "limitations" as a small country and need to integrate into the EU and a larger World. So while the Dutch are fiercely patriotic - if anyone was in Basel for any NL matches during the Euros, they'll know what I mean - they've adapted to a world where Dutch is not a national language for many and spoken by few outside of NL. I think we can all agree that the same cannot be said for the average inwardly-looking chip-on-the-shoulder Swissie.
I have lived in Holland for almost a year. When I came to Switzerland I would compare the two cultures a lot. The Dutch people are more often than not 1) lively and energetic 2) interested to meet foreigners 3) even a farmer in the far countryside speaks amazing english and is not afraid to approach you 4) know how to party 5) dont try to rip you off..I would say that the Swiss are the exact opposite of this ( maybe pt 4 is not a rule per se).
I guess it's ok to reply that Belarus Women living in Switzerland are more often then not Strippers and Prostitutes? How's that for some generalization?
Yes thats a good generalization for sure except I am American so dont see how thats really meant to offend me. Its not my fault that there are desperate men in Switzerland and stupid enough to open their wallets for those sort of women.
I can see why you take my comments personally and thats ok with me. I know there are exceptions to the rule. I have several great Swiss German collegues.
It isn't an issue of like or dislike, so don't put words in my mouth. It simply "is" and you deal with it (learn the languages necessary) or you don't (associate with foreigners only or Swiss as individuals only).
I'm making an observation based on my experience.
Many people in the world have dialects, etc. Not everyone handles the situation in the same way. Hell, as pointed out, the Dutch don't even tend to act in the way you might expect with their ONLY OFFICIAL LANGUAGE, which actually is somewhat unusual.
I lived in the Hague before I moved to Switzerland. I've observed that the Dutch are immensely proud of their ability to speak English and have zero problems switching to it immediately whilst the Swiss - even those of them with excellent English - are much more humble and say "a little" when you ask them if they can speak English, whereas most of the dutch, when asked if they do, they scoff and reply with a "of course!" Very interesting.
To be honest, and this is just based on my personal experiences : I've tried learning Dutch whilst I was living in the Nederlands. The language is difficult and it was even more difficult to practice. Attempts to speak it will be met with impatience and sometimes even scorn. 99% of the time when I tried to speak it, they respond in English and stubbornly refuse to speak Dutch to me even though my responses are in faltering Dutch.
Most of my interaction with the Swiss on the other hand, have been met with encouragement. They respond back in High German or Swiss German when I tell them that "mis Dooch ist nut guet, bitte langsam!" (sorry, dont know how to spell). Some of them really respond really slowly, like I am some 3 year old (or moron, I cant tell which), and I appreciate their patience in helping me practice and learn new vocab.
Cool, so it's a rule that Swiss people try to rip off people. And that is how you approach people. Wow. It's like saying more often then not foreigners are criminal. If you are not...you are just an exception. I know some political parties where you would fit in.
Its not a rule that people rip you off and I try to always keep an open mind on a individual case basis.It is just a feeling that sometimes prices here are unreasonably high, for example for apartments and it makes me feel, at times, that I am being ripped off.
Only thing I would say is, I don't except Swiss people to speak English.
I was really comparing Swiss speaking HIgh German to Dutch speaking English. Not a perfect comparision, I know.
Your comments about Dutch speaking English and not wanting to speaking "bad Dutch" I can easily believe it might be harder to learn Dutch. Often in Zug people will answer me in English when I speak German (however this rarely ever happens in St. Gallen, they answer me in GErman).
When a Swiss person says that he speaks 'a little' English, what he really means that he is fully conversant in both the language and literature, Shakespeare through Modern Greats - but still finds Chaucer just a tad tricky.
Its difficult - and not necessarily wise - to try and compare two completely different language transitions (in Switzerland; from Swiss German to High German, and in the Netherlands; from Dutch to English) in two different countries.
And that's before you consider that both countries are made up of various people / individuals.
My experience is pretty similar, I guess it depends also in which part of the NL you lived. My husband is dutch and I learnt dutch while in NL, I speak it decently but zes people get impatient when you are not 100% fluent and switch to English, until I say hey I am trying to practice your dialect here! then they would go back to Dutch, but my in laws let me practice as much as I want they are super.
Another thing is that the Dutch think their language is so so so difficult, who could ever master it? I want to slap them when they say that... Well let me tell you Dutchies, it isn't...German is so much more difficult, I can speak Dutch after 3 corses, I cant speak German after 2 years of classes A thing I like though, is that after moderately mastering it I get compliments on my Dutch from Dutch people...