Having spent a great deal of time in the Netherlands, and living now in Switzerland, I would like to offer my own perspective on this issue.
The Dutch do learn English well. And they love it when the get the opportunity to use it, however I have noticed a few times that they think they are better than they actually are - be it accent or lack of vacab.
I would never pull them up on it, but sometimes I just couldn't understand what they were trying to say. Every single one of these people (a handful from various backgrounds) think it's my problem if I can't understand their broken English.
It comes down to arrogance I think, which is something I had a problem with in the Netherlands more than once.
The Swiss people do not seem to learn English as easily (there seem to be less people who can speak it fluently). With regards to wanting to speak English or not - it comes down more to personal preference. My gf's friends will all relish the chance to speak English with me (my German is coming along very slowly, sadly) however there are members of her family who can speak English but won't do it unless they are speaking to me and no one else is around.
Even if they are addressing me when in a group, they will first try in German (this is good for me) but if it doesn't work, they either ask my gf to translate or they just give up, when I know they can get their point across.
You are brave commenting on our English skills Whenever I hear comments like that I always tend to wonder...how many language do you speak...even better, get taught at an early age....
Yes we are a little arrogant but it all comes down to being noticed, coming from a tiny country and all....
Oh no, being English I am well aware of our contry's failings at teaching languages (even our own!). AS a result, I learn languages very slowly.
It's more to do with the general attitude I experienced throughout my time in the Netherlands, and it did come through in how the reacted to me when I couldn't understand the phrase "you want chicken flakes?" (that's a very specific example, but I remember it because it was the funniest )
Chicken flakes.....did they mean chicken nuggets? Chicken wings? Enlighten me!!!
I know what you mean though...After 5 years of speaking "American English" we had to laugh at the English skills, even our then 8 and 12 year old having to correct their teachers or at more then 1 occasion having to teach the English lesson!!!
But have to say, although it would be easier on me if everyone I speak to here would switch to English I want to speak (high for now) german just to improve myself....Luckily German is not to difficult for the Dutch
So your opinion is that it breaks the close social harmony more for Swiss to speak High German (a national language that everyone knows) than Dutch to speak a completely foreign and non-official language to each other? "Alrighty then"...
Also, everyone there knew i could not speak Swiss German...well unless they thought somehow my bad German was just me putting on an act or somehow I spoke Swiss German without having ever learned proper High German.
I understand what you are saying and agree that the Netherlands is densely populated, but in reality the cities are small and the population is slightly bigger than Switzerland in a land area slightly smaller?
Still, as you described not all Dutch are liberal and easy going with foreigners. I never thought this was the case anyway, if so they would not have there right wing party in such high popularity.
That being said, the Hague is not New York or Paris.
I think some of what others said is correct, Dutch feel proud to show off their English (some Dutch, maybe the more urban types) and my experience is more than just a waiter or one trip. I have Dutch friends as I said in the first post, and I know their friends. I'm sure they are more educated than average, but they are not some rich urban jet-setting elite. Hell, they are always complaining about expenses and money. lol
The conurbation I was talking about has nearly as many people as Switzerland but is only a fraction of the size. You can compare it to the San Francisco Bay area... and yes, that is dense.
"in Switzerland (particularly the Swiss-German region), smiling is for freaks."
Really? My experience (i know, not a good thing to say on EF lol) is the exact opposite. Everyone, from my abwart to the lady at Migros, to the mechanic to the people in the hospital always met me with a smile. What's more, in most of them I had the true feeling that it's not a fake reflex smile (a feeling plentiful in the US for example), but a genuine one.
I am a Randstad girl! Even today, being to early for school pick up I stopped on the way, little parking area before you could hike in the woods, called my friend in the Netherlands and describe to her my surroundings ;-)
Myself being Dutch, had to learn English for 5 years, German for 3 years and French for 2 years (always hated French!).
Also, the Dutch being sailors and traders for centuries and the owners of quite a few colonies, we must have needed other languages then our own to be able to set sail to "the edge of the world" and make something successful out of it.
I am always amazed by the lack of interest in other languages by people from other countries. Any German youngster can speak a word English, that's ok, but the French... man!! They don't even know "yes" or "no".