According to a 20 Minutes the vote might pass with 52% surveyed saying they will vote for it.
And to those who will or would vote “no” - would you in principle vote “no” any time, or there’s a certain population threshold that could change your mind, in a hypothetical scenario - say if we imagine that Switzerland keep growing its population rapidly year after year non-stop?
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Or, to turn the question on its head, if the vote goes through, might that prompt a sudden hiring reflex where companies try to get ahead of the curve and cause a balloon of population growth which jumps out of the steady growth curve, as it stands now, and puts an immediate strain on services, resources, housing, etc.?
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I don’t vote, but I would vote no because the initiative (cap at 10 million) does little to solve the current problems at ~9 million ((housing, employment, mobility). So, a no because it’s an ideological win with limited impact on reality.
I wouldn’t worry about a spike in hiring as Shirley not suggests. Business are free to hire as much as EU and non-EU workers they want today. Quotas not reached for non-EU workers show limited interest.
The risk I see is entering a period of time where nothing changes in practice but we’re much less welcome as Auslanders.
I will vote no for two reasons. First I don’t see the problem here. Second I think the solution to the problem, which I don’t see, is not the right one.
For example nursing in the Lausanne/ Geneva area. We need more Swiss nurses and fewer frontaliers but that is not an immigration problem.
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on current trajectory, how long will it take to reach 10 million limit?
I see two problems but have high doubts that the initiative is the right solution.
- Housing is an issue in many areas. The increase in population contributed to this issue to a large extent. The increase is mainly caused by immigration. So immigration gets the blame for the housing issue.
- The increase of foreign people in Switzerland make the Swiss people fear about their identity and culture.
Both these problems are not unique to Switzerland. As in most developed countries, immigration helps against an aging population. Still, the tools in Switzerland, such as popular initiatives, require that the ones who directly profit from immigration need to explain and make sure that there is also some benefit for the rest of the population.
Why is that not an immigration problem? If there were no frontaliers, it would require Swiss people to do the job.
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Hm an interesting idea to explore, I remember I was receiving messages from recruiters from UK when Brexit was being finalized, but maybe it’s a price to pay for this reform
Would a boat (with a limited physical capacity) requiring more and more people to row (as a rower gets added it brings its weight, and some rowers get tired) a good analogy here?
Housing is an issue. Won’t write more about that.
I understand the fear about identity and culture. There’s a reason people speak dialect and not a language that can be used in more places. I don’t know if it’s only the sense of identity or the diminishing economic returns of learning the local dialect. It’s not told loudly, but I perceive some discontent at my work. Both locals or foreigners who arrived 1 or 2 decades before me are not exactly happy that the more recent wave of foreigners is doing well without having to master the local dialect. I even sense some kind of resentment in older foreigners that I did not have to overcome they challenge as they did.
The other unspoken issue is that the higher the bar is set to admit foreigners (specially from 3rd countries), the higher chances that we’ll do great, even above average of local population. No surprises here, Switzerland filters for the best, Switzerland gets the best. A lot of voters grew up in a time were immigrants were mostly vulnerable farmhands and construction workers. This changed along time, and effectively leaves people wondering what happend to their country where they looked down at immigrants.
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Swiss people can do the job whether there are frontaliers or not. There’s a shortage of people to do certain jobs. It’s not like there are millions of doctors in Switzerland desperate to work only that they are being displaced by foreign doctors. There’s a shortage in spite of immigration helping to plug the gap.
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Housing has been problematic for over over 40 years (at least). I don’t see this as a solution to that problem.
Frontaliers live in another country, they do not live in Switzerland. Hence that is not an immigration policy problem.
Swiss education policy needs a hard look and students need to be pushed to professions where supply is not adequate to meet demand.
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Swiss education policy needs a hard look and students need to be pushed to professions where supply is not adequate to meet demand.
Indeed it should.. in common with the US and UK there is a definite trend for kids to attend university and gain Michael-Mouse degrees instead of doing apprenticeships . To be fair to the students it’s mostly the parents who are pushing them in this direction, particularly among academics whose greatest horror is that their offspring have to learn a trade.
Simply out of curiosity, CH vs. DE (say), how long does it take a medical graduate to become
- a doctor?
- Independent doctor (without supervision of someone more experienced)?
- A specialist?
- A surgeon?
I’m really curious to see the number of years required in each country and what the process entails. Pointers to this information would be appreciated also.
Cheers …
I doubt this very much these days, considering the eye-watering costs / debt of attending UK universities.
Added to the fact that the apprenticeship schemes in the UK have been hollowed out by 14 years of Tory austerity.
I asked Perplexity your question:
Medical training in Switzerland (CH) and Germany (DE) both start with a 6-year undergraduate program leading to a medical degree. After graduation, further postgraduate steps are required to practice independently or specialize, with similar but not identical timelines. future-tabib
Basic Timeline
Both countries require 6 years of medical school (3-year bachelor’s + 3-year master’s in CH; ~6 years state exam-based in DE). healthsystemsfacts
Path to Independent Doctor
In CH, graduates pass the Federal Licensing Exam (FLE) to gain a license (Approbation equivalent), allowing supervised practice initially; full independent practice (own responsibility) requires cantonal license and often some experience, typically after 1-3 years postgraduate work. In DE, the state exam grants Approbation for full independent practice as a general doctor right away, though many start supervised. Total from graduation: ~0-3 years post-degree for independence in both, but CH emphasizes exam + experience. study-in-germany
Path to Specialist (e.g., General/Internal Medicine)
CH general/internal medicine residency (Weiterbildung) takes 5 years after licensing. DE general practitioner training is 5 years (60 months); internal medicine 6 years. Total post-graduation: 5-6 years. fruitsdusavoir
Path to Surgeon
CH surgery residency is 6 years (2 years basic/core + 4 years advanced). DE general/visceral surgery requires 6 years (24 months basic + 48 months specialty). Total post-graduation: 6 years. sgc-ssc
Key Processes and Sources
- CH: Medical school → FLE → Postgraduate residency via FMH/SIWF (logbook, exams) → Specialist title (Facharzt). See FMH Weiterbildung or SIWF Surgery. swissforum.co
- DE: Medical school → State exams → Approbation → Weiterbildung (5-6 years rotations, state chamber exam) → Facharzt. Check Bundesärztekammer. scribd
| Milestone | CH Total Years (post-high school) | DE Total Years (post-high school) |
|---|---|---|
| Medical Graduate | 6 future-tabib | 6 study-in-germany |
| Independent Doctor | 6-9 fruitsdusavoir | 6 healthcorppartners |
| Specialist (General) | 11 fruitsdusavoir | 11 pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih |
| Surgeon | 12 sgc-ssc | 12 scribd |
I just read a very interesting article in the Tagi which unfortunately is behind a paywall, but which highlights the irritation of having people post AI generated answers which are too long and often require considerable time to be fact checked for their accuracy. There appears to be much better editorial oversight of Wikipedia than the current AI sources of information.
I realise you were trying to be helpful, but the original poster could easily have asked the same question of AI. I. am not sure that the number of years is really the critical issue when it comes to doctor training. The big issue for Swiss-german patients is that they often prefer to have a doctor who speaks dialect rather than high German - I have not heard of any criticism relating to professional standards.
I don’t see a point in voting “yes” because the proposed implementation might endanger the prosperity of Switzerland. But, frankly, I don’t believe that we will ever reach 10 M.
I am 99% sure that this initiative will pass even without my vote. The result will be even higher that the polls, because this is a kind of situation, when voters are “ashamed” to say that they are going to vote for this initiative.
I think that survey probably aligns fairly well with the emotional and rational sides of the parties. For most parties these two sides are in rough agreement but for the FDP it is a real problem. Emotion votes yes, reason votes no.
As for people being ashamed to vote yes - those days are gone. It is going to be very interesting how this turns out.
Not in the same scale as in the past few years. It is a constant topic in personal discussions and in the media, partly backed by hard numbers. Supply is not catching up to the demand. And demand is party driven by immigration.
They are allowed to work in Switzerland without the requirement to have residency, thereby lowering wages, not paying full cost of living and making Swiss people fear about their identity and culture. In Ticino, a canton with high number of frontaliers, the majority will most likely vote in favor of the initiative.
Of course I see the paradox between the complaint about housing prices and the dislike of frontaliers. But I don’t think you can win or loose this initiative with logical thinking or hard facts. It’s about ones own personal situation and emotions.
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