Geneva public school as a frontalier

Dear all,

I am a single father with two children (twins aged 5). I am relocating to the GVA area soon and I have been reading many threads about schooling.

I intend to live over the border in France, as it is considerably cheaper - especially when I factor in the costs of housing and Au Pair. (Moreover, taking an Au Pair into Switzerland seems to be a lot more bureaucratic).

Private schooling is off-budget to me. I have been considering enrolling my children in a PUBLIC SCHOOL in GENEVA though. I have read it is possible when you are a 'frontalier' provided there are spaces left in the Swiss public schools.

Two points have been attracting me to this idea.

1) I have heard many complaints about the quality French schooling system.

2) I am attracted to the idea of my children learning German as a foreign language at school, and that is tought in Geneva but not in France.

What are your experiences with this? Is there anyone here who lives in France but take their children to public school in Geneva? Is it worth it?

Is the Swiss public schooling system indeed better than the French one?

How easy is it to get a place at a Swiss public school as a frontalier??

Is there a better area of Geneva/France voisine for me to live if I am interested in doing this? I don't want to be too far from Plainpalais, and from reading other posts it seems Saint Julien-en-Genevois is the best option for me (if I consider the cost/benefit ratio and public transportation to Geneva)

Your opinions are really important to me (relocating abroad as a single father is not an easy task... )

Lots of good questions, I hope someone can help you here. All I can say is that German is taught in french schools but I'm not sure from what age this option is available. St. Julien is probably the nicest town bordering Geneva, definitely more attractive than Annemasse.

Not sure if it helps, but as far as I know, it is not possible to enroll your kids in the Swiss School System.

Also, I am not aware of your sources regarding the quality of the French system, but my wife is Belgian/Spanish and have been in school in Belgium, Spain and France and she consider the French system the hardest/best.

As for the German, I know they learn it here, but not at such an early age. My niece is having a pretty hardcore German course, but she is attending High School.

Also agree with the gentleman about Anemasse... the "other side" is much better: Ferney, St Julien and Gex.

Good luck on your relocation

Like Dack Rambo I can't really help with the schools as my sons are grown-up now. But they did go through the swiss system in Geneva (Carouge in their case) and I found that as long as your child is 'normal' (not requiring special needs, over-bright or just labelled plain 'difficult'; as my youngest was!) they receive a well-rounded general education, not specialising in only a few subjects until far later than they do in the UK.

I think Geneva schools are talking of teaching english rather than german as a second language though.

St. Julien is definitely nicer than Annemasse, smaller, less crowded and grubby feeling and there's a lot of new appartments being built in the centre of town at the moment. The Geneva border area's Children's Hospital is also in St. Julien, and has an excellent reputation.

Bus links into Geneva are every 12 minutes during the day and from the centre you'll get to the Plainpalais area within 20-25 minutes.

Hope someone can help with the specific school question.

Good luck with the planned move!

Having asked a couple of people, it seems you can register the children in the swiss system..... but you have to prove a 'hardship' with putting them into the french one. Such as it being physically impossible for you to get them to a french school because of work commitments. Which wouldn't be the case if you have an Au Pair. Several people I know register their children as living in Geneva with their grandparents because of this.

The french system at such a young age seems to be fine, it's once they get to the BAC level it becomes difficult; but like the swiss system it covers more subjects that the Uk one, which gives a more rounded education.

Your HR department would be the best people to ask, if it's possible they should be able to tell you how!

http://geneva.angloinfo.com/informat.../schooling.asp

Have found this link, it's in english and has some useful information and addresses.

Yes, you definitively can register your kids in geneva schools when being a frontalier. No need to prove any kind of hardship. Several colleagues of mine do so, one of them living next door to the french local school. There are literally thousands of kids in that situation. I'd recommend you to call the departement d'instruction publique for more information

http://www.ge.ch/dip

022 546 75 00

Thank you all for your responses!

I checked with a public school in Geneva and it seems that it is possible indeed to enroll my children in a public school there, even if I decide to live in France. The only thing is that in case of limited availability, I will be given lower priority for places at the school than families living in Switzerland.

I am more concerned about how the level of the public schools in France and in Switzerland compare. My twins are among the brightest children in their class (according to their kindergarten teacher). They don't need special education, but I would really like them to be in a school system where they would be more stimulated.

Which system is more stimulating for children in the elementary school, the French school system or the Swiss school system? Is there a substantial difference between the two?

In French primary school , the teachers have so called liberté pédagogique. It means that no-one in the universe can force them to teach following a specific method: they are in charge and free to decide for the pedagogy they want. Let's be straight forward: if you don't like it, change school, there is no battle to be won at all.

But this has a very nice side : Go to the school that are in your short list, have a talk with the director and look at the class rooms. Don't forget to ask the ultimate question: méthode globale ou méthode syllabique? That's how they teach to read and write. You don't want méthode globale for learning French, really don't. But you might get a mix of the two methods, usually called "semi-globale". It is normal in France to go and get the methods and activities explained before enrolling your child (but don't be an inquisitor!).

German in France : it depends. Anything is possible. However, we are talking of Geneva region, which means that German is not exactly on their mind when they plan education. Make notes:

- Primary school: language initiation, in most cases it's English, so you have to ask each school if they have German as it is getting extremely rare. That being said, it's language learning "light". Foreign languages are middle school subjects in France and they focus heavily on French and maths. Students with no foreign language initiation catch up in English or German within months in middle school anyway.

- Secondary school: Grade 6th (sixième), students are 11 y.o. when entering the so called collège (middle school) with one foreign language, it 90% of cases it's English but if you are lucky, they offer German if they have enough students and a teacher, as this is getting more and more rare nowadays to start with German before English. Check in your middle school of choice if they offer another first foreign language (be careful, second language is called première langue as they only count the foreign ones). Attention: some schools offer a so called section bilangue, students take two foreign languages right at start of secondary school. This is not the normal choice, one has to apply for it, it's for children who are at ease with school in general.

- Secondary school: Grade 4th (quatrième) students are 13 y.o. when entering (probably grade 8 in UK). There come normally the second foreign language, it's Spanish for a majority of students, but one might be able to choose other languages depending on the school (in big cities, there is a huge choice, not in small places). German used to be a common choice, it is not every where the case any more... as always, each school is different, one has to ask. They have the right to discontinue languages on offer from one year to the next for optimization of the human resources, so here again, make an appointment.

- High school. Anything is possible, but not in every school. There are brochures for each school sector with offers and admission prerequisite. Depending on the grades and geographical-administrative divisions, you'll have many or few possibilities.

Quality of education is very relative, in any country. Things are just different. French school is academic. Grades are serious. I've been in both French and German school systems as a student, and I can only warn about underestimating the work load in the French system. It's intense. Good memory. self discipline, high capacity of abstraction in both math and literature, understanding the importance of history/geography in the French school culture, understanding and accepting that French essays are not at all what UK essays are (UK parents won't be able to help there), accepting that the academic expectations are higher than what the system itself is able to give support for.... and also accepting that French school is about analyzing, proof and argument, not applying, concrete life and opinions. French school is basically a 18th century enlightenment's dream come true... but the Kant style, not Rousseau style.

Generally speaking, there is little difference in primary school. The early language program is one of them. The big one is early streaming in Switzerland vs. late streaming in France . It is normal in France to keep the whole nation's children in the same school until they are 14 y.o. in a common middle school and the main streaming takes place when entering high school. There are then four main possibilities, depending on how professional/technical it is. In Switzerland, the differentiation takes place already in middle school to a certain extent. I'll be honest with you: In France, you are nothing an nobody without baccalauréat whereas in Switzerland, you are what you have learnt as a profession and that can be it with or without the maturité.

Wow, what a dedicated answer! Thank you Faltrad! Your post is VERY informative!

Hi everyone,

Thank you to all the posters so far on this thread. It is very informative!

We are planning a move to the south side of the lake, living in France. We hope to use the Swuss public schools in Geneva. If anyone can offer any advice on the following I would be very grateful -

What is the process for registering a Fronatlier child in the swiss school system? Do you contact the school directly, or the government agency?

Has anyone encountered any difficulties placing their child in swiss schools as a frontalier? Are there any restrictions or special requirements to be able to do so?

Thanks very much.

Hope this reply is not too late for OP.

Consider the Ferney area also. As others have said it is less grotty than Annemasse.

However my thinking is that the College/Lycee at Ferney have national programs (English, German, Italian, Spanish, Dutch and Swedish IIRC). There is also some national program teaching in the primary schools.

My four all went through English section only - however they were advised they could join the German program as well when they went to the College. Of course, it may have changed in last four years, but worth investigating.

Also, German was available as LV2 (i.e as taught to French students).

http://www2.ac-lyon.fr/etab/lycees/l...international/

HTH

J

Thank you bery much for the information.

If we end up living on the south side of the lake then Ferney could be a bit of a stretch driving wise. I have heard good things about the school there though.

Do you know what the options may be for those living on the south side of Geneva in France?

Thanks again.

The school is over-subscribed - so much so a second one is supposed to be being built.

As a result, I think you would need to be resident in Pays de Gex (which as others have said, is less grotty than Annemasse).

J

Notwithstanding Faltrad's long and informative post, language teaching in the French school system at all levels is almost uniformly dreadful, with a few bright spots due to highly motivated teachers. Emphasis is on formal rules and written work.

Getting close to Ferney is a unique opportunity, as being next to CERN means that it offers all the good things described above, once the kids are 11. As Faltrad points out, at primary school level, it is very anarchistic and the teachers choose their own programme. They do have to teach a foreign language these days, but they usually have little or no training.

As pointed out, if you don't live locally ("périmètre scholaire"), it is going to be impossible to get in & the logistics would be a nightmare too.

As I have mentioned before, on the south side, you are basically in standard issue France, with almost no Swiss influence, as soon as you cross the border.