I'm going to loose my job

Visas, Permits, Passports and Naturalization
1
Hi everybody,

I'm a software engineer/technical pm working in Zürich. Unfortunately, last week I have been told that I'm going to be dismissed.

Besides the usual formal reasons, I feel that there were some personal problems that poisoned the work relationship. I'd like to share my experience with you, in case someone has already had a similar experience and maybe can provide some good advice

My first problem was the language: I'm a EU citizen (B perm) and do not speak German. No matter that in the company everyone speaks English, I've been asked to take some courses and learn German, which I didn't do because of lack of time (I'm used to wake up at 6.00 and be back home at 19 or 20) Now, I have been living here with my family for three years, and I clearly DO intend to learn the language, but frankly speaking I think that in a working environment (and especially in my field!), English should be the only required language: German helps to buy a gipfel or when having a grill party with my neighbours.

I told this very straightforward to the managers. Big mistake!

The second problem was the amount of small, useless and micromanaging rules/tasks I had to fulfill on daily base: tracking time in blocks of 15 min, describing and justifying all my activities, using company templates to write documents (once I got a complain because I used the Word button instead of the template to bold a word ), receiving impossible time frames to complete a task, with no possibility to discuss them, and being asked to babysit the people I had to coordinate, loading on them the burden of such time frames.

To me, the colleagues I work with are first of all persons, not resources to manage, and if the team cannot fulfill a certain requirement written in a certain document, it means that the document was wrong, not the team.

I tried to speak openly about these issues many times, and I also sent emails referencing well known studies showing how a micromanaging environment is far to be more productive. The former action was particularly not appreciated.

I have had some experience in the US working environment, where everyone is encouraged to be as open as possible (if they have to stab you, they do in the face ). I thought that here is was the same, but thanks to my big mouth I have now to look for a new job. Pity, because I have developed a very good relationship with my colleagues (except most of the management )

Anyway, the company has been very correct and supportive in the process: they told me I can decide to resign myself, if I prefer, and they prepared also a very nice "Zeugnis" letter to be used as reference.

I have also being told that being laid off is not good for my working history, but if I resign I might loose some rights, in case I won't find a new job within my notice period.

Is this true?

Thank you for any welcome advice.

2
I'm sorry to hear you had such an unfortunate micro-managed working environment. Please read the following thread as it has a lot of information and concerns a somewhat similar situation.

about to lose a job

3
Thanks a lot chemgoddess!

I've bookmarked and will read it all

4
Hmmm sorry to hear that, it's not the first time bureaucracy has killed productivity and progress. Anyhoo, I believe that if you get fired you're entitled to more unemployment benefits. Whereas if you resign yourself you have to sit tight a few months before receiving benfits...IF you don't find a job before receiving them that is. I know a guy who got canned (his screwup) and he immediately received benefits, luckily for him he found a job a month later...but still, it's nice to know there's something to fall back on.

5
My best advice is to use the search feature of the forum. You'll find lots of information there. For more information regarding the search feature, please see my signature

6
Last week I was formally notify that my company would terminate the working contract.

The company has left me the option to resign by myself or to receive the letter from them.

I know that in the former case I would not be able to claim any unemployment benefit for the first 3 months after being unemployed. The "advantage" is that there will not be any "spot" on my working records.

I'd like to know your opinion about the two possibilities, and, in particular, I have a couple of questions:

1) Is it really true that being fired leaves a spot on the career record? Is there any was for the future employer to check it? If I choose to let the company to lay me off (to protect my family and myself from the risk of not finding a new job after the notice period expires), but then I am able to find a new job and so I don't need to apply for the unemployment, is there still any record reporting that it was the company to quit me and not me to resign?

2) my company suggested me to resign, saying it would be better for my working records. Do they have any interest in this solution? Should they have to pay part of my unemployment benefits in case they quit me?

3) if I decide to resign myself, can they force me to leave immediately, without waiting the notice period?

Thanks for any suggestion and advice.

7
That will very much depend on the reference letter they give you... You can find a whole thread about this here:

http://www.englishforum.ch/employmen...reference.html

and here

Moving Jobs in Switzerland and References

Your future employer might want to have your references checked prior to make you an offer. However, you must give them permission for these sort of inquiries. Of course, if you refuse to aknowledge, that will not sound too good. Concerning the inquiry itself, your former employer cannot badmouth you or make a negative comments about you.

This is a tough one, but i would recommend you to negotiate the terms if the reference letter.... What i really cannot understand is why they are forcing you to quit....Firing is free in Switzerland (with a very few exceptiom, that include preignance and illness), as long as they give you a reason to terminate the contract and respect your notice period. Maybe Richard can give a better explanation for this...

Hope this helps and best of luck,

Lucy

8
Hello Lucy,

thank you for the recommendations. Actually, my company did not "force" me to resign, they just (kindly!) offered the alternative to leave by myself instead of receiving the letter of dismissal.

This means, it would be like I have decided to leave the company, and this might look better on my employment history, but will let me without unemployment benefit for three months.

The reason why I've been dismissed is because I didn't have good relationships with some top managers; consequently, the zeugnis I've received is a standard "coded" bad one (not good, not so terrible according to Richard ), and I have no possibility to propose my version (so, in a way they can badmouth me, using the coded sentences).

My dilemma is to choose between the two options I've got. Considering that my reference letter will be the same in both cases, is it true that:

- being dismissed will put a bad light on my employment history?(but how can the new employer know that if I had been fired or I had not left by myself?)

- in case I resign (meaning I give the letter stating my intention to terminate the contract), can my employer decide not to wait the notice period (afterall it might be his right, not his duty to decide to apply it)?

Cheers

9
Lets put some things right here.

You always have the opportunity to change your reference letter. Firstly draft a version you are happy with and present that. The reference letter you have is most important and more important than the reason why you resigned or were asked to leave. Your current version would leave some employers not wishing to employ you and that should not be the case. If this is a true reflection of your performance then you have very limited options to change it but if this is not and you can somehow prove it is not then you can get them to change it either voluntarily or through the courts. I have the feeling that they would change your Zeugnis based on what you have written thus far so it is worth a try. Send me a version if you want me to "rewrite" it.

If you resign and are not able to find a job within the period of notice then future employers would think, when combined with the reference, this guy comes does a half good job and when it suits him leaves. This would be a negative. Your unemployment benefit or better said your right to unemployment benefit will be frozen for 60 days (circa 3 months).

If you are terminated then you are protected via unemployment benefit, will get the opportunity to learn German (paid for) and have a RIGHT to time off for interviews not as part of your holiday entitlement.

Given the above, it is nearly always better to be sacked...

With respect to termination, as long as they respect the notice period, they are entitled to sack you at any time for any reason (or indeed no reason) something which cuts both ways, although if the employee resigns they are usually more than happy to tell the company why they are resigning...

10
I have already spoken with my employer; they said the zwischenzeugnis contains only normal to good sentences and they showed me the template of their coded sentences (it is true, only 3 to 4 out of 5)

So I have no chances to get a better version!

Give that, what should I do according to you: let them to fire me in order to be on the safe side (see unemployment benefits) or quit myself? Can the future employer call and ask who wanted to terminate the contract and why? A person I know had a lot of trouble to find a new job after having used the unemployment benefits for one year.

11
Sorry to hear about that. I would advise you not to resign your self because then you cut the way off for the RAV (Regionale Arbeitsvermittlung) I believe you would receive also Money for being without work. Your Zeugnis, you are always aloud to change if you are not happy with it. Greets Michèle

12
Hi Michele,

thank you for your comments.

Am I allowed to change the zeugnis if I don't like it ? Shouldn't it always be negotiated with the company (there is their signature, afterall)!

13
As usual, good advice from Richard. I am in the same boat, although a bit further down the stream.

Finding a job in Switzerland is, as someone stated (sorry can't remember the post), a numbers game it would seem.

Play it safe, even with the best Zeugnis /Certificate de Travaille / Work certificate in the world, it can still take time to find your next job. I'm still looking .

14
Your Zeugnis does not need major amendment just a change of words. The problem is not their template it is their interpretation of their template. I would rate this rather as 2.5 to 3.5 and certainly not 3 to 4. That is a very subtle bus BIG difference. 3 is after all average. What you are actually after is not necessarily a better version but some changes in wording to remove the sentences from the standard codex to a version that needs to be read at face value.

In any case I would definitely let them sack you. At the end of the day the situation is quite simple:

In a few days time you have no job. You either get lucky and get one quickly or you don't. If you don't then those extra few thousand that you would otherwise sacrifice will come in mighty handy and if you do get lucky then hey you don't really need to care what the reason for leaving on the reference was.

The point being some employers do not like people who change jobs as this means they are likely to only stay a few months with them and would rather have someone who is loyal. By being sacked you have not demonstrated that you are not loyal hence would get a look in. Others do not like people who got the sack because they are cast offs so to speak. So whichever route you take you cannot win in everybody's eyes so take the route that gives you the most advantage and that is let them sack you!

15
Thank you Richard, as usual another clear and precise advice.

I'll let them lay me off, and will do my best in the remaining time to find a new job (I'm a software engineer - project manager and I do know I'm skilled and capable) before my first baby will be born - definitely not the best moment to loose a job.

Besides the practical implication, it was my pride to be wounded: it has never happened anything similar to me before, and in all the places I've been I have left good memories. Sadly, not in this one (at least not to everybody). Maybe my almost non-existing knowledge of German has played a role as well.

It is really true: The only good is knowledge, the only evil is ignorance.

Next time I'll be less ignorant!

16
Unless you have gone through a lot of jobs in a short time, dont worry about being sacked vs resigning once, particularly after 3 years with them. You sound like you have a perfectly explicable reason for drifting apart.

Do "fight" for the best Zeugnis possible... I never heard of any company getting in trouble for writing generous Zeugnis, but a weak one can be a real blot on your record.

We write "uncoded" ones. The coded ones are an excercise in superlatives... good is bad, supercalifragilistic is ok, add -expialidocious and it's good.

Daniel

17
Hello Daniel,

well, coming from an international environment it took me quite some time to understand that here in the Swiss working environment the not-written rules and coded messages are often more important then the written and formal ones. (Not a criticism, just my personal observation. Maybe it is because Swiss people are taught to behave as polite and kind as possible, and truly they are).

Yes, I have fought to convince the company to adjust some words (adding emphasis - I've also written the proposed sentences by myself). They refused, not because they are afraid of something, but because they believe that every aspect of human life should be precisely and clearly regulated. So there is a sort of process of collecting data, working them to a matrix, adding/subtracting a variable value (oups, but this is not so precise!) which depends on the "feeling" that they have about you, finally resulting in a number corresponding to the coded sentences (I got 3 or 4 out of 5).

I could not believe to my eyes, but I have been shown this, they have been quite honest and transparent.

And I don't want to blame only of them; it was also my fault, when at the job interview I have underestimated the signals I got (I've been working here for only one year - ironically I was looking for a place where to develop my career after some international experiences).

Honestly, I don't feel to discuss any more why a certain module took 8.5 hours instead of 6.15 to be developed, and why i had not put my development team under enough pressure.

So, afterall, what has happened was the right thing, and I'll try to get the best out of this experience.

18
Well, from what I can see, to me it seems that it was not matter of 6.15 hours against 8.5 hours to develop something... It was more sort of the game to choose sides... they wanted you to be clearly on the management side and not the team side - "to be one of them" and not nice manager adored by team... they do that very often... especially at beginning – that is one of the ways you can be tested you as manager (how strong and dedicated you are in that manner...)

There are lots of examples of that... I just saw one in newspapers - one woman (different country) got appointed for chief editor although 57% of journalist voted against her (journalists’ votes had just advising role), but the management appointed her because she is clearly on their side, personally I think that she is bad journalist and not watching those news because of her...

In some organizations team work is appreciated far more than just on paper – so in those organizations you would fit better...

I am sure that there are lots of companies who appreciate who can create good working conditions and develop strong team. Try to figure out which companies are like that.

Maybe your team members could write you a reference as well. I am not familiar with Swiss system and not sure if that helps – but I would do it anyway because of myself.

You will be fine, just remember, we all went through similar situations in life... no matter which side people show you, they usually have good understanding.

I know many people who got fired, and bounced back... it is no big deal, things like that are part of working life, it can happen to all of us for different reasons – if someone trusted you once, there will be other people who will trust you again... every employer is different... we all had bad bosses and saw good people who were asked to leave.

19
I have a simple question and I would be very grateful for any advice:

Today is Sunday and I know that my employer tomorrow will either

1. Go for Entlassung (a small possibility but real nonetheless)

2. Go for a Kundigung

The latter I will accept but the former scares me as it means "fristlos". My question is this:

If I resign tomorrow morning at 08:30 am, have I negated their right to go for "Entlassung"?

I have read all the previous threads but this exact question is still open for me.

Any advice?

20
A "fristlose Entlassung" is only legal in extreme cases (p.e. a breach of trust, a crime commited at the workplace etc.). Your actions tomorrow don't affect the existence of such a reason and the legality of this measure.