is it so hard to speak High German?

Complaints Corner
21
Thank you for explaining that. What you said gives me a glimpse of what it might be like for swiss people to speak HG. I just have difficult time understanding why it is so hard for many Swiss People to speak HG.

English is not my native language, yet I speak it comfortably. German is even further from my native language yet I can speak and have conversations rather comfortably. Swiss people read, write, learn and speak HG in schools so why is it so difficult to speak it? I think I need to be Swiss to truly understand...

Okay, we did lived in Korea briefly and during this year everyone around my husband spoke or tried to speak English. They wanted to make him feel included and they understood it is not the language one can just pick it up.

If you came to my party, I am not going to speak Korean the whole time with my Korean friends and let you seat around for hours with frozen smiles on your face specially if we all are capable of speaking English. That's just me.

In this party, it's not like they tried speaking HG and went back on speaking in Swiss German. If that has happened, I would not complain. They never once tried speaking HG the entire time I was there. No one on one conversations either, we all sat in a circle to talk with everyone. And not to mention they were speaking in Bern dialect, Basel dialect, etc. Yes, perhaps if it was only Zurich dialect, than at least I would have understood/guessed some of it. But this way I had no chance to understand!!!

I guess what I was looking for is a little more consideration.

22
Your wife has to take note of some basic facts

A) the union has three main plus one additional national languages, but nobody is required to speak and understand any language except his own one

B) while the union is at least tri-lingual, the Cantons are not. Which means that in Glarus, St. Gallen, Appenzell (both), Thurgau, Schaffhausen, Zürich, Zug, Luzern, Uri, Schwyz, Unterwalden, Aargau, Solothurn and Basel (both) only German is official language, the cantons of Bern/Berne, Fribourg/Freiburg and Valais/Wallis are BI-lingual, those of Jura, Neuchâtel, Vaud and Geneva only have French as official language, Graubünden is tri-lingual with German, Rumansch and Italian, while Ticino is monolingually Italian speaking

C) German is German, and the law does not make a difference between dialects and Standard language. Official language for all written things so is Standard-German, known here as "Schriftdeutsch". And Standard-German is spoken in radio and TV broadcasts, in schools and also in church sermons

D) Italian in Zürich in real terms over the past 50 years heavily lost out against English.

23
I agree, it has to be with uncomfortable feeling to be an underdog.

As I said, its a handicap we are born with.

besides, a lot of jokes and light conversations just don't feel right in an other language.

Actually there you're right and it sounds really selfish from them. They should not ignore you. At least they should include you from time to time and also have a 1:1 conversation with you. But on the other hand, it really takes away the spirit and excitement for them if they would have to speak HG the whole evening. Did you ever had sand or dust in your eyes. its not really hurting you but its uncomfortable. Thats the best I could describe it.

Group-Language has to be light and words should go like a feather from one to another. A 1:1 conversation is more like Tennis, smack it back and forth. There you're concentrated and you take a pass easily.

Same story happen also a couple time with my wife - on both sides. if she is together with her Russians friends; they also could be very exited and simple forget about me. For me thats alright, I use the time to find the rhythm of the language, the sound. Study faces and gestures. You can learn a lot by just listen carefully and study them. Funny enough I baffled them a couple of times, not getting one word, but just by sound and gesture I could guess whats the topic.

But if I together with Swiss friends, sudden we forget about her and our feather flies. Is is not mean to hurt her or exclude her. It just happen...

24
Faltrad, what do you mean by "passive"? That seems to contradict the advice given by crazygringo.

Crazygringo to me seems to be recommending not just focusing on high German but trying to "recognize" Swiss-German by passively listening, but ACTIVELY trying to learn Swiss-German by trying to speak it to others. That doesn't mean not trying to learn or improve one's high German, but if the OP doesn't want to feel left out at parties because of Swiss-German, trying to speak it will probably help her learn it than listening alone.

(That being said, everyone else in this thread knows more German than I do, so take my advice with a grain of salt.)

25
You're in Switzerland OP. People will speak Swiss German and it is their right. It is the language of the country's people. It's also a party which means that people divide up and talk amongst themselves. You've only a right to complain if someone is speaking directly to you in Swiss German and they know you can't speak it.

26
That union is called Confederation, and it has four national languages but three official languages, the latter meaning that federal laws are not published in the fourth national language (Romansh) because it's too expensive to do the whole translation and printing for about a good half % of the population. However, Romansh is an official language in the Grisons, where cantonal laws have to be published in that language too.

27
if Swiss would only speak high german to all foreigners, how would do the foreigners then learn swiss german? (since it's only a spoken)

it's hard in the beginning, but after 1-2 years you will understand just fine, if you want to

my experience is that people usually ask if I understand dialect, and Swiss people I work with know that I understand...if you plan to stay in Switzerland, it will be one of your biggest assets...learn it, love it, live it

I would say that foreigners here should be thankful to be in a country which speaks so many different languages...

28
I'm a complete language dullard but having been here for so many years I've finally managed to absorb High German as my spoken language and am able to understand Swiss German to a reasonable degree.

It didn't help the process that, being and English speaker, Swiss people took me as an opportunity to "practice" at the critical time I was learning German at school. Added to that I was in the similar position as the OP of being at parties where the language was a mish-mash of Swiss German, High German (when they remembered) and English ("Ooh, I've been learning English since years, can we talk?" ).

Luckily, my husband has a circle of friends (which have also become my friends) which, unusually, don't speak any English and definitely don't like using High German in a social setting. Having spent many evenings, holidays and weekends with them over the years (usually with too much alcohol and a lot of laughs) I have to take my hat off to them that they were my biggest influence on learning the language here.

I could have looked at it negatively and forced them to speak High German (obviously they can) or just point blank refused to go with my husband on all those holidays, weekends away and to their parties "because they only speak Swiss German" but I love spending time with them as they are so warm, relaxed and welcoming. I would have missed out on all that - but my liver probably would be in better shape!

29
The radio station to which we listen at home broadcasts 24 hours a day in Swiss German ... makes understanding the weather forecast tricky at times, but we're getting there!

The songs, of course, are about 90% in English ... from 20 years ago ... makes me feel young again!

30
all of my colleagues who have lived in Switzerland as expats recommended that I try to learn "standard" German, probably since it is "portable" and much of the written word here is in German. if you look at the Klubschule Migros class offerings, they require at least an intermediate level of German proficiency before you can sign up for "Swiss German" courses. to me, though, this seems like telling a German who is moving to the midwest in the US to learn the Queen's English - yes, people will understand what you are trying to say to them, but you will understand less than half of what is being said to you. part of the gap will be because in the midwest we speak the same words as in the Queen's English but do so with a distinctly different accent and emphasis, and part of the gap will be because we use entirely different words and phrases.

in some ways the various Swiss "dialects", at least in the German-speaking cantons, are similar to our "dialects" back home. I am proud to a fault of my midwestern accent and slang, and nothing would kill a party more for me than having to speak "standard" English. then again, I don't need a "portable" foreign language at this point in my life or career - besides finding genuine interest in learning the local language, I would simply like to comfortably buy groceries and petrol and speak with local Swiss colleagues in a way that allows everybody to not feel like they are forcing the language (and I have veeeeeeery long way to go)

31
this is why i find it absolutely ridiculous that one of the official languages here is German, rather than Swiss German. This gives a misleading impression to expats that that's the language they need to learn, when in reality, in a natural, relaxed environment Swiss won't speak German amongst themselves. Effectively, to function well in society, we need to learn two languages (or one language and one dialect, however you see it), and that's a loooot. Learning one is difficult enough. Asking locals to speak German is different from asking them to speak English. English is not an official language...German is though

32
Exactly. As an English teacher back home I was often invited to little parties held by my Japanese students. Even if most of them were pre int or int, they always spoke in English, knowing how rude it would have been to have invited me and then left me there listening to them speaking in Japanese.

You DO NOT learn a language just by listening to conversations. You have to study it. I have been watching German TV every day for the past 2 and a half years and I still only know just a few words. I simply became more efficient in guessing meaning from context (well, at least when the Simpsons are concerned)

33
I don't live in the German speaking part, but I would probably have to, so what worries my the most is that by trying to learn Swiss German I would lose a significant part of my High German that I've struggled to master .

34
Yes, but just like most Ticinese can speak SOME German (especially store clerks), she expects that people from other parts of Switzerland should be able to speak SOME Italian (even she speaks a few words of German, albeit nothing much useful), especially store clerks. As a co-worker pointed out, even in the German speaking parts of Italy, everyone speaks at least SOME Italian!

Tom

P.S. It is good that most people here can speak at least some French or German, as I came to Ticino with virtually no knowledge of Italian.

35
Of course with a group of Swiss folk, I can see that it would be quite unnatural for the group to speak exclusively german or english for you, but it sounds as if they might have made a little bit more of an effort to make you feel that you fitted in. I find it a little rude and unfriendly when someone in group is excluded because of their language and try to default to the 'common denominator' language as much as possible.

I also want to point out that we don't have such strong dialectical variations in the UK as here in Switzerland. With the exception of Welsh (spoken mainly in North Wales) and Scottish Gaelic (even smaller use in N Scotland), the language we speak in the UK is the same, albeit with dramatically different accents. It's mainly this change in accent that makes it difficult to understand people from certain regions. Of course, there are words that are regional - for example, I use the word mardy, that places me firmly as a midlander,which my husband had never heard of - he's a soft southerner. And there are many more regionally distinct words in Scotland and many Scottish speakers mix in some Scottish Gaelic, this is true, but for the UK as a whole the language itself, the grammar and structure are the same - English. Glaswegian children don't have to learn English as a new language in the first year of primary school and any English speaker, after a short time of adjustment to 'get their ear' will understand a Geordie or a Scouser. Having lived in Newcastle and Edinburgh I've been through this process myself and it doesn't seem to be the same as the difficulties as a German has here to understand SG.

Or maybe I'm getting it all wrong and SG is just a different and impenetrable accent but everyone says it's very different from German and a different language, more or less (I'm still learning HD, and no where near good enough yet to try SG).

36
I just wanted to say that I can appreciate how exclusive and vulnerable it feels, especially if you are someone that as a host is very considerate and inclusive. Consider these your gifts to others, while acknowledging that others have different gifts. I expect as others have mentioned, that there is nothing intentional about this, but that doesn't make the language barrier any easier.

It IS tiring always trying to integrate, and it's okay to take a break sometimes and say, "I just don't have the emotional resources for this right now."

I hope you can find a compromise that feels better to you, and lets you know that you are cared for. Not being able to communicate can be so isolating, but remember, you are not alone, they invited you because they wanted you to come.

37
The thing is that only time I actually do hear Swiss German is in the stores where I do understand the words for money, numbers, dates etc. Otherwise all the official meetings I've attended so far were in HG. That is not enough to carry on a conversation in the party!!! I can not simply learn SG by listening to a Coop casher!!!

At home, we speak HG, English and Korean.

To make the matters worst Swiss people tend to speak to me in English since they see that I am a foreigner. I dare say they prefer speaking in English than HG. I got so tired of not being able to practice my German that at some point I had a situation where the person(Swiss) spoke to me in English and I spoke back in HG and carried on the conversation all the way....

38
Dear people, you do what ever you want, I really don't mind.

But Germans from Germany do it usually the way I discribed it. The couple of North-Germans I know speaking Swiss German have a very unnatural accent and the vocab is High German, but nobody tells them so they will swear to you that their Swiss German is perfect. Don't crush their illusions. As for the one Swabian I know who switched over to Swiss German, well... he just speaks Swabian with /kch/ in it. That's four-five people in total, so maybe people here know hundreds of others with perfect Swiss German, I just don't.

In case some one still has not understood (not talking about you, just in general), the local language is GERMAN. The diglossia is the reality of it, which means that High German is NOT foreign, it's just NOT ALL of it. Learning any language is work intensive, that's just a fact of life.

I am talking here as German native, but I had exactly the same problem in Norway, speaking Danish and facing huge dialect differences. Well... I just worked for it and it took a couple of years intense and dramatic life style changes but I managed and even read the Swedish articles at university for some courses, the natural thing to do up there. That's sweat, sweat and more sweat. No easy way. So keep up the good work and don't let anybody crush your motivation for any reason. Good luck!

My solution:

- speaking: High German, but sometimes a local word out of habit or necessity.

- listening: Dialekt/HighGerman what ever people speak, but I have no shame asking if I don't get it. With the years, I ask less and less.

- with jurks: when facing people who make a point of torturing Germans with as much cryptic dialect as possible, I just leave them alone and go.

One of my neighbours is like that, I just don't listen to her at all, I just smile, if she really has something to communicate to me, she will have to leave a note in Schriftdeutsch.

39
My coping strategy, living in deepest darkest Ausserschwyz, is to keep focused on improving my HG - but to also work on understanding as much SG as possible. And one can do that simply by listening and deduction from context.

I'll never be able to speak SG, at least not until I am absolutely fluent in HG - and I'll likely have shuffled off this mortal coil before I reach that stage. However if one understands enough SG so that the person to whom you are speaking does not have to reply in HG, conversations flow just fine.

Everybody's happy.

40
[QUOTE=livinginswiss;1398453] I think I need to be Swiss to truly understand...

YES!