Hello,
last year I asked here about the case where a Ricardo buyer did not pay:
Got cheated!: Ricardo first-time buyer did not pay!
Well, out of curiosity and also a matter of principle, I decided to pursue a Betreibung on that guy. The first attempt failed as he already moved to a new place. Well, so I did a second one sent to the new place and guess what, the Rechtsvorschlag was then behoben by his legal guardian ( Vormündin ).
I just phoned his Vormündin and was told that as he was under her legal guardian, any contract that he signed is not valid from the legal point of view. I was like, wt*, as how the hell should I know that he is under a Vormundschaft that he would not be hold responsible for his bidding?
For me the things become interesting and I am wondering if anyone of you has any experience of this legal guardian thing? I just find it bizarre that someone can just be under legal guardian and could simply order things without consequences?
Thanks for your opinion.
you could notify Ricardo and ask them to suspend his account as he is not legally allowed to make any sort of contract for himself.
Other than that, well, next time you won't send goods without payment, and you'll post registered so you have proof of delivery.
There's no way to know if the guy stole your item, it wasn't delivered (you said he moved house anyway).
It's such a minor amount of money...you've probably spent ten times more money on your time fussing around with the various procedures and paperwork...
Well, he did promise me on phone one month after the delivery (by chance got him) that he will pay. The whole thing got delayed because he has an accident or what. But yet he never really pays after that. So I reckon there might be some misunderstandings here, but still I couldn't reach him anymore but his guardian who told me anything he promised doesn't count.
I just find it unbelievable. It is like he can just walks into any supermarket and walks away with stuff yet on one could arrest him as he could not sign any contract of buying actually??
It is not a big sum, yet I find it hard to comprehend it in our law governed society. There must be some rules and regulations protecting unknown seller to people like him?
I wonder what would happen if you sent the bill to the guardian or if this could now be considered theft as he never paid?
I guess then the item still belongs to you and you could ask for it to be sent back. Or maybe the guardian will pay.
While the amounts are at stake are small, it is interesting to follow this through the processes - you never know when it might be useful for a larger amount...
The law protects those placed under guardianship.
Having said that, the contract is void, and while you have no right to demand payment, he does not have the right to keep whatever you sent him. You can collect it from him (of have it returned to you at your expense). If he destroys it or keeps it unlawfully, you can go after him in tort (unerlaubte Handlung or "civil wrongs") only.
He is treated like a child. If he is Unmündig than a sales contract is only legally binding when the Vormund gives his o.k. (in advance or afterwards)
The stuff is in the ZGB Art. 11 ff specially Art. 19
But he may still be Urteilsfähig and thus liable. Contact the Vormund once more and request all the stuff to be send back. Cite ZGB Art. 411 .
It is up to the seller to verify if the buyer is appropriate
Would you sell a new car to a 10yr old? No.
Would you sell alcohol to a 5yr old? No.
Unfortunately, on the Internet it is not so easy to determine if the person buying is authorised to buy.
If the buyer is a child, then the parent of the child is responsible for the childs actions. Take up your issue with the child's parent.
He is an adult, not a child. My guess is that he is maybe suffering from some illness that now he needs a legal guardian. In fact I did even speak to him over the phone. Everything sounded well but somehow he did not pay.
I will take the advice from the others to ask for my stuff back. But as I did not send the thing via registered post, I don't have anything to prove... But it just puzzled me because somehow that guy never said he did not receive it but still promised he would pay me....ok well, that was the only time and last time I hear from him. Now I have to deal with this guardian that insists "any contract he signed is not valid",,,,
It sounds like he has some sort of mental disability, he found the internet and perhaps went on a bit of a spending spree which go him put under guardianship.
For 40CHF it might just be time to let this go.
If he has a legal guardian, for whatever reason, he cannot sign any legal contract without his guardian also signing, no matter how mentally competent he may be.
If he does, it has no legal value, only the guardians signature is valid, i.e. it doesn't matter if he signs something or not, it's the guardian's signature or nothing.
Tom
I got your point. The million dollar question is, how would one know if he has legal guardian? Especially when nowadays you can practically order anything online. I believe there are still many business which deliver goods with invoice later. Isn't it unfair if he just does a shopping spree and everything has no consequences just because he has a legal guardian? Something is surely not just here.
Fair point. The other point of view is: Why should someone make a profit from the actions of someone who has been placed under guardianship for his/her own protection. The law says that the vulnerable adult is more deserving of protection than the other party.
I agree that you don't know, and have no way of knowing, whether the other party is under guardianship when selling online. In fact, you have no way of knowing whether the other party actually exists at all. That is the risk you incur when selling online (and shipping physical goods to a first time buyer before payment was made - honestly, what were you thinking?).
Get your stuff back (write a letter to the guardian) and move on.