Living around Zurich with 2 kids and a dog.

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1
Hi,

My husband just got a job offer to work in Zurich with a salary of CHF 90 000-100 000 brut. Would that be enough for a family of 4? We have a 2 year old and a newborn baby. Which areas do you recommend to live? We would love to be close to nature or the water.Right now we live in France and this salary would be great here but it seems that life in Zurich is pretttttty expensive!

And how about food? What s the budget for a month? Roughly?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated because right now, we are having a hard time making up our minds!

Thank you!!!

2
There are many close by areas to Zurich (like Kloten) where you get bigger apartments compared to Zurich and again it depends how much monthly you want to spend with family having 2 small kids. Staying in Zurich is costly (we stayed in Stamford CT) and I am sure I am not the first one to tell you that. :-)

3
Thanks for your reply, you are actually the first one to tell me that because I just joined the forum today I'll check out the place you told me about, thanks very much!!

4
How about Greifensee? Is it crazy expensive to live in that area?

5
I'm sorry to say, but I believe that a salary of 90-100K will be a bit tight for a 4-person family.

A few very basic calculations:

Income: 100K/12 = ~8300 CHF/month.

Costs:

- Health insurance costs are ~300 CHF per person per month (1200 CHF/month for the whole family).

- An apartment that would fit all of you will be somewhere 3000 a month (typical sum of money, there's a bit cheaper and also a lot more expensive).

- Food costs are up to you and your diet/habits, but a rough guess is 1500-2000 CHF/month (I'm no father of two, but rough estimate)

- Transport costs: minimum of 80 CHF/month/adult

- Telephone/IT/electricity: ~200 CHF/month/family

- Lunch at your husband's workplace is usually somewhere between 10 and 20 CHF/day (20 days of work a month = 200-400 CHF/month)

- Education is not free for kids in Switzerland, that one salary is going to have to cover education of both kids

A rough 5-minute estimate with the facts above means that your fix costs would be around 6260 CHF/month (with minimal costs mentioned above calculated).

Please note that I did not calculate any car costs, or costs related to your pet.

I'm sure some people here on the forum will tell you that house/phone/food/whatever costs can be cut down, but that's my view/calculation on costs and I don't consider myself having an extravagant/luxurious lifestyle.

6
Thanks for your reply Xandeo. I should mention that we would not have to pay for education , at least during the first years since our oldest is only 2 and the baby will be born in September.

Do little kids like that pay the same as adults regarding health insurance? I thought it was cheaper for them.

Anyway, if CHF 90 000 is not enough, we just won t move, no big deal.

7
I don't want to scare you away, I just wanted to give you a realistic picture of costs. Regarding the kid's insurance, I am not sure as I have not been in the situation myself (just heard my colleagues mentioning the prices).

For any price comparisons, I highly recommend using www.comparis.ch , as it will give you realistic prices of most stuff that you need for everyday life.

Good luck and hopefully you'll get more answers on the forum!

8
Hi,

All depends how and where do you want to live...

90-100k would, thing is your hubby will have rally low income tax with 2 kids and being only earner (4-6%).

Also, you can live a bit further from Zurich, in my town (Winterthur, train to ZH is about 20 minutes) you can get 4/5 room apartment for ~2000 chf

Also if you shop in Germany and cook more than go out you can save a LOT on this.

Health insurance is ~200 chf / month adult and about 80-100 per child...

9
Local schools are free. Are you talking about international schools?

Miyamoto, 100,000 pre tax is about the national average for families with 1-3 kids. So yes, it might not be luxurious but it's quite doable.

You can trade a longer commute for cheaper rent, and if only one of you is working probably save a good bit of money that way. Plus you'll be closer to farmland/mountains, which you mentioned as a priority.

10
Where do you get your info as most of it is wrong or way over estimated?

Kids insurance is under CHF100, my youngests is only CHF60 per month

My 3 bedroomed apartment is less than CHF2000 & is a decent size, plenty can be found like this outside of cities

Food: you what? Are you shopping in Globus food hall. It is possible to eat very well on a lot less than that.

Transport: all depends on where you live and where you need to get to

Telephone etc: again too much in my experience

Lunch: packed lunches to save money and a lot of places have subsidised canteens.

Education is very much free in the public school system only private education would have to be paid for.

11
You have indeed very different prices from the ones I/my colleagues pay in Zurich.

My colleague is a single-incomer but has a wife and two kids - according to him, he pays "over a 1000" in health insurance every month for all family members all together. Prices are in relation to service, and I can assume that a parent would not go for the cheapest possible insurance when it comes to his/her child. I believe my estimate for insurance (300-350 CHF/adult/month) is a quite average estimate, since I remember getting offers in the range of 290-800 CHF/month.

Food budget estimates are based on a healthy diet (fish, meat, pasta, vegetables, fruit, dairy products), purchases made at Migros, Coop as well as at Lidl on a monthly average. I would like to see anyone getting by on less for a 4-person family, having more than pesto pasta on the menu.

For purchases in Germany, one needs to estimate then also costs for a car.

Transport is minimum 80 CHF/adult/month - this is based on the ZVV price for zone 10 (monthly pass), which only includes Zurich city. If commuting, this is going to be considerably higher. I jut bought a ZVV bonuspass for a year, subsidized by my employer, at an annual fee of 729 CHF.

Telephone: IT bill is 60 CHF/month. Unless you want to surf at the same speed as in 1998, this is a pretty normal price. The remaining phone estimate (140 CHF) is for two adults per month. 70 CHF for a monthly fee is a normal estimate, the last time I checked with Swisscom and Orange.

Lunch: it's of course true that lunch boxes are cheaper. But the corporate culture might be good to observe, and sitting at work having lunch box might not be the best alternative all days. As mentioned, this is a suggested budget estimate, everyone is free to make his/her own assumption. Therefore, the price mentioned was per day and not per month.

Education is free? My friends with kids (expats and locals) tell me otherwise. According to my understanding, yearly fees apply to all students, but again, I'm not a father myself and as the OP mentioned, education costs do not need to be included.

I would like to add that based on the prices that you pay for housing, food, transport, insurance and telecom you must be living in Poland and commuting to Zurich to actually be able to criticize so harshly my estimated budget.

12
1) Basic insurance is basic insurance. Prices vary, coverage doesn't, by law. So if you choose to stick with a more expensive company I guess that's your right. It's a waste of money though.

2) Four person family - can I get back to you in a few years' time? We're currently a two person family (two adults) and spend less than half that. We don't shop in Germany (too far, no car) and pasta is on the menu about once a month as neither of us likes it particularly.

Your transport costs are right on, but as I suggested above it would be much cheaper for them to move out of Zurich city. The lower rent more than offsets the need for a more expensive transport pass. (On the downside it is rarer to meet fellow expats out here in the sticks, if that's important to you.)

13
We live on a lot less, however not in Zurich, but still, 100k seems adequate to me for Zurich. Local education IS free. We pay roughly SFR 700.- for health insurance for the 4 of us. About SFR 1500 for food, that includes husband's special diet. You should be able to find an adequate apartment for around 2000.- per month outside of Zurich. SFR 35 for internet, and it's plenty fast.

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Thanks MathNut! That helps!

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Thank you! From what I see , people have very different opinions on how much you need to live but I guess it depends on your lifestyle. My husband and I are pretty simple people, so I think we may be able to make it work in the end.

16
Hi there

Just a few figures from my own 1 year experience living and working in Zurich:

1) Quick answer: 100,000 CHF is just about enough for a family of 4 to live "quite ok"

2) Income Tax: 100,000 CHF is before tax, if you're a newcomer, you'll probably be granted a B permit, and pay tax on each salary that you receive. This means 2 things:

2.1) You would receive not around 8,300, but more like 6,800 CHF in your bank

2.2) This tax cannot be reduced by living in "low tax area" around the Zurich area (like Kilchberg or Herrliberg), the tax amount will be the same as anywhere in Zurich. I learnt this the hard way by budgeting 2,500 CHF per month, then increased this to 2,800 CHF (because we understood the tax would then be reduced by about the same 300 CHF) but nope, that is for Swiss nationals / C permit holders only

3) Health Insurance - 300 CHF for each adult is accurate, but for kids it's more like 80 CHF until the reach 18 years old

4) Kindergelt / Family allowance - With 2 children this could be worth around 5,000 CHF per year to you. You should receive 200 CHF per child as long as they are in full-time education. I'm not sure at which age this starts, but it can end as late as 25 years old as long as your child is in full time education (pretty good really)

5) Food budget - 1,200 CHF should be sufficient for a monthly food budget, and this means:

5.1) Eat at home each evening together as a family

5.2) Plan your alcohol purchases, locals will often be seen with 3x boxes of wine that is half price special at Denner

5.3) Cook extra and use this for the lunch the next day - including your husband's packed lunch! In my experience, it's very normal (including the posh offices of big banks) to bring your lunch, use a microwave, have a chat, sit in the sun. It will save you between 300-400 CHF a month that you'd spend on the fairly average canteen food. Even if you go to the COOP for a sandwich and a drink, it's 10 CHF per day / 200 CHF per month! Better keep that in the main family budget

5.4) Eating / Drinking out - is the.quickest.way to spend your money! Of course it's nice, but with this budget and a family of four it could cost between 100 CHF and 200 CHF ! My tip: Keep it as a monthly treat

6) Travel

6.1) Children aged up to 18 years travel for just 30 CHF per YEAR as long as they are with one of the parents

6.2) Adults, yeah about 80-120 CHF per month each. You could try just the husband buying the monthly pass and then you buying each ticket individually, but again in my experience I'd avoid this for 2x reasons:

- This is not much saving (if you travel 3 times per week in to Zurich) at 6 CHF per daily ticket = 72 CHF

- Buying the tickets when the machine doesn't accept your card and there is a queue and the train is coming and you don't have any change... is a pain

- As you'll be new, and you'll want to save money where possible, you could be discouraged to travel which means you won't integrate so well / meet new people / look for activities etc... We did this at first but now my partner has a monthly travel ticket and is much happier

- In fact, if your cashflow allows it, you can buy the yearly travel pass and then there is 12 months for the price of 9 months. It's another 250 CHF saving each per year, 500 bucks is 500 bucks!

7) Internet / Phone / TV - 100 CHF per month for the top of the range UPC Cablecom package, fast internet, free landline calls within Europe, and around 200 chanels including English and French ones

8) Electric bill - 100 CHF per month

9) Clothing - Despite the rumours, you can find little shops everywhere in Zurich which have "nearly new" or "last year's model". It takes a bit of time to build up your network and you have to be in the mood really, but honestly we save quite a bit of money by exploring these shops

10) General purchasing, furniture, books - 2nd hand / online:

10.1) Brockenhause stores dotted around the city (some are huge and stock beautiful old solid furniture)

10.2) Ricardo.ch / eBay.de

10.3) This forum!

10.4) Other forums like "Ronorp.ch" especially good with so many people coming and going you can often buy a whole apartment for less than half the new cost and sometimes only 1 year old

11) Car - Unless you need it, don't buy a car! The public transport is great and you can relax whilst you use it. Also it's a totally fixed price, unlike a car when it can be 500 CHF per month (after car insurance, petrol, parking costs, speeding fines...) and then something breaks!

What else... hmm, probably a bit long now and my partner is wondering who the hell I'm typing to so I'm going to open a bottle of half price nice red wine, and watch a movie

Oh oh, last point, if possible, ask your husband to:

- Try negotiating on the salary offered to be 110,000, this should help a lot

- Ask for a relocation salary (I got a one-off payment of 5,000 CHF)

- Ask for any benefits, sometimes the family health insurance is a benefit offered by companies

All the best!

Dan

p.s The dog! Is it small? Quiet? Those are fine in apartments, but I don't see many bigger dogs (which I would like)... I think there is a "dog licence" you have to buy too

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12) Schools are totally free!

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We're a family of four, moved here in Nov '12 at which point in time we had a 2,5 year old and a 6 months old baby so pretty much same situation as yours except for the dog .

- Health insurance: CHF 600 <- this is with max coverage and no franchise for the kids

- All other insurances + help with taxes + various registration fees for last year were 500

- Rent 2300 incl. heating & 1 parking space

we live in embrach which is 30 mins by public transport to Zurich main station roughly 20 km.

- Media (internet, no tv) is little under 80 CHF

- phone subscription 30 - 70 depending on what you want / need

- Transportation to and from Zurich 150 CHF (public transport)

- If you're thinking of daycare it's rediculously expensive here (~110 CHF per kid per day / ~80 for half a day)

- we do part of our shopping in germany and part of it here I don't think we got above 1500 a month and we eat quite health and diverse

- depending on use and type a car will probably cost around 300-500 per month don't worry tho the costs will be compensated by shopping trips to germany

- oh and education is free well at least nothing exorbitant once the kids get in normal schools. unless you go for private schools

Tip: shopping for the things that small kids need: -> go to Germany every 2-3 weeks or so.

even without being too careful 90k-100k for a family of 4 should be enough as long as you don't rent a family size apartment in the city itself.

I'd say focus less on the financial consequences and more on the social while taking the decision.

Good luck

19
Oh you asked an important question which I didn't answer, places to live!

My opinion and more helpful from experience is try not to look 30-45 minutes out of Zurich to save 500 on your rent, (say from 2,800 down to 2,300) I mean if you're moving here then live here! I've walked the path myself and seen friends too who go for the extra bedroom or the bigger terrace, but then the one working has a 1.5 hour daily commute and the one at home can feel isolated quickly!

You can find really great places which are just 10 minutes on the train from the city centre, like Kilchberg or Thalwil, and are near the lake too, it will really help for your quality of life.

Last point check the apartment locations are near the main train stations, with regular connections all day. A friend of mine had a place where the last bus at 19:30, and when he missed that it was a 30 minute up hill walk!

Now we are living 5 minutes walk from the train station and the shops and this really helps life move smoothly.

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Dan, you are amazing! Thank you so much for taking the time to really go into the details!! That is sooo helpful!!!