So effectively that's the same as them giving it to him in return for his time in prison.
The fact that he no longer has it to spend is just bad luck.
But he doesn't need to repay it. They're writing it off.
If he lost the bank 100 Franks, he would have to repay it out of his own money, no? There would be no basis for assuming anything else.
If he lost 1.4 billion, he would also in theory have to repay it. But he can't so the bank is waiving the claim. So he owes the bank 1.4 billion but his debt is being written off. Isn't that the same as being given the money? Who wouldn't go to prison for 2 years to have a debt of 1.4 billion expunged?
If he was smart he would make sure that money wasn't really lost but that all his little trading "errors" benefitted "friends" who would repay him when the time came.
This guy isn't so lucky, they aren't letting him off, and he still has the prison sentence, so he's officially the worlds most indebted man, owing 6.3 billion .
No. Some trades they win on, some trades they lose on. Overall performance over time (prob a year) will determine the size of bonus, whether you keep your job, promotion chances. You don`t owe the bank for every failed trade and you dont keep the proceeds if you are successful.
BUT this guy was trading outside his authority and really the bank should have had correct control procedures in place so that this didn`t happen.
Coming back to my worldly problem of being charged CHF 350 illegitimately, here is an update.
I had called the person responsible provided to me by the "complaints" department. He was unavailable but was kind enough to call me back. He said that the internal bank "client contact record" updated by my advisor says that I was informed. I repeated what I have said here which is that I was told about waiving but NOT about the applicability of the fee in case I do not use their service. Also I made it clear there was no specific amount discussed.
He defended the charge with the "amount of work done during a period of 4 months on 4 properties" but I repeated that they did not agree with me on the charge before and the only reason they took the money from me is because I hold an account with them.
He has told me that his manager is on vacation and is going to be back next week Wednesday and is going to call me.
I have decided that if they do not resolve this problem before end of month, I will move my account elsewhere and continue finding ways to escalate the problem within UBS and in public forums as I think it is important for everyone to be aware of these non-customer friendly practices.
Today I heard back from the branch manager who was on vacation for a week. He said he has gone through four months of discussion and has arrived at the following conclusion
"UBS does not want to encourage mortgage shoppers, so we have had the policy of charging clients a fee for not taking their mortgage after taking advice. We however make it clear that the fee applies early on in the discussion as indicated by the client contact notes of the client advisor in your case as well".
Although I refuted the understanding, it fell in deaf ears and we agreed sadly that I will move out of UBS for all my future banking needs. So I am to start a thread on how I can find a competitive. I also was tired of the circular discussion and thought it is best to end it.
My request to everybody looking for a mortgage - Please please stay away from UBS (ironically especially if you have an account with them as they will take money out without your authorization). Hopefully my lost CHF 350 will be the last of its kind atleast amongst EFers.
Knowing that EF ranks very high on Google, many people researching UBS mortgages are likely to read this thread.
I am thinking I will only be happy if I can recover the CHF 350 by shorting UBS. Since the money logically went to the shareholders of UBS, I think it is only fair I am able to recover my modest sum from them.
Forumfan,
I'm glad that you've come to a resolution, even if not exactly the one you want.
Just a heads-up, though, as you are about to become a home owner...
Charging for quotes is becoming more and more common in Switzerland - in all industries. For instance, many, but not all, architects, contractors, plumbers, tilers, painters, electricians, etc. have been doing it for several years. I'm saddened to see that the practice has migrated to the financial sector - but I suppose it's yet another thing we'll have to watch out for.
So if you are planning any home renovation, always ask upfront if a 'Gratis Offerte' is the company's practice, or if there is a charge for a quote. Quotes range from the painful (CHF 1500 for the Architecht) to something more palatable (ca. CHF 500 for larger Handwerker projects to ca. CHF 100 for smaller ones). If one chooses to go with that provider, the cost of the quote is usually waived - but check this as well.
Given that one often gets wildly differing quotes on a project, one can't afford not to do comparision shopping - but it rankles nonetheless.
Anyway, hope the rest of the house purchase process goes smoothly.
question: did they really make it clear? did you sign anything that stated this fee? if not, then on the face of it, it seems you have a strong position.
i'd keep on fighting them. you can easily waste more than 350chfs of their time and in the end they'll realise it is cheaper to refund you.
Did they make it clear? No no and no (no specific amount), no explicit mention that the charge applies if I did not sign up a mortgage and finally no specific invoice for me to contest (they direct debited my account)
They seem to have all the time on earth to handle the complaint but with my account with them, I will not be surprised they will direct debit me CHF 350 next week for handling my complaint.
So my strategy is to first protect my money by taking it elsewhere and then start pursuing the complaint more rigorously.
Thank you for the message. It indeed is scary but a very useful warning at an appropriate time. The home purchase experience has been exceptional. I come from "the third world" and I was amazed how the owner handled the hand-over, the notary ensured we understood what we were buying. Our mortgage provider was also very fast to turn around the letter of guarantee. Movers / landlord seem quite reasonable with their expectations / support.
I'm a little confused here. They made it clear that the fee would be waived if you signed the mortgage? But isn't it then implicit that not signing the mortgage will result in a fee? Or did I miss something?
Edit: yup, missed your interpretation posted earlier.
Write to UBS to say that you also spent a lot of your time talking to their advisor.. that you provided them with valuable insight into the potential purchasing decisions of a typical customer. Tell them that a reasonable charge for your time is 350chfs.
...Well its official now. I have shorted precisely 350 shares of UBS. Now the moment the share price falls by CHF 1.2 (0.2 for the commissions), I would have made my 350 .
Lets see if it happens before christmas.
Just for the sake of balance, we have two mortgages with UBS (we're in the process of selling one property) and have been pretty satisfied with the service and their flexibility. Our client manager is a little rubbish to be honest (very dizzy and difficult to get hold of), but whenever we cc her boss things get done. They've bent over backwards to keep our custom, including only asking for 15% deposit for the second property, and agreeing to match our best quotes (through the Comparis mortgage market).
actually. i also have 2 mortgage with UBS. at first they tried to screw me on the rates, but price matched another quote in the end.
i think the mortgage products are pretty good (at least the flexible LIBOR one).
i did move my banking away from them in the end, but because i didn't want to have my salary and banking with the same institution i have my mortgage with.
Care to explain why not Phil? I quite like having it all on one screen