Hello,
I'm a IT professional in Germany. I come from Southern Europe, and there's no way I'm going back living there...the only things that I like about Southern European countries is the incredible Spanish/Italian/Greek food.
But at the same time I don't like Germany: It's too big, too many people, too much impoliteness and aggressiveness, unfriendly people, etc...it's true what some Swiss people say about the Germans: They are rude and noisy. Not all...but many. It's true that they are not as strict as Swiss-Germans when it comes to enforcing rules...but you pay this with a generally lower quality of life, cleanliness, and lack of safety.
I'm undecided between trying to move in Switzerland or Norway. I love mountains, and I visited both countries in the past as a tourist, and both are beautiful, although Norway is more beautiful, and its cities are more distant between themselves and less crowded...a wilder and less spoiled landscape. Also, Switzerland has lots of lakes...but it's not the same as having the sea. The sea gives you a different kind of emotions...
On the other hand I don't like the binge drinking and dark winters that one finds there...
What are pros and cons of living in Switzerland vs living in Norway (not northern than in Trondheim)? Also on a long-term perspective...
I always found Norwegian people to be a bit more friendly and open during my trips there...but maybe it was just my impression, and in any case the difference with Swiss people wasn't huge.
First of all, it is sad to hear about your experiences in Germany.
Then about Norway, as southern guy, there is only one question: can you survive one norwegian winter a year? You will not be able to know before you try it. Details about differences Oslo/Bergen/Stavanger/Trondhjem are details compared to winter. But one thing must be clear: Norway=province. If you like it, fine, but don't look for a proper big city, there isn't one despite the allegations of the locals. I liked my private life in Oslo, very much. But alone in Norway with no connexion? You'd better have a secured job and good money as a start, but even that may not be enough to manage to do anything else than having casual sex with halfdrunk people for a social life. Be very very very careful when you negociate your salary in Norway... you'll need every krone of it.
As for Switzerland, you'll have to tell us where (language and canton), otherwise, we can't even give the beginning of an answer.
One advantage of Switzerland is the mountains for skiing and hiking.
Another advantage is that Switzerland is very close to Italy and France.
Another advantage is that there are lots of jobs here in comparison
to some other countries.
- Norway: I would prefer to live in Bergen, if any.
- Switzerland: I would prefer the German-speaking or the Italian-speaking part. Of the German-speaking part, my favorite city is Basel.
The best of both words would be: Living and working in Switzerland for most of the year (>183 days), living and working in Norway for the 3-6 months of Spring-Summer, to enjoy its stunningly beautiful nature during the "easy period".
Don't get me wrong...Germany is not too bad, especially the Western part. I'm not saying that it's a dump...but it's definitely worse than I though. And I've also met friendly and open Germans, starting with my landlady...but I'd strongly prefer to leave asap for a smaller country with a more "natural" outlook on life...
I'm not sure you'll be happy in either country. But from what I read of what you write, I think ultimately you'll be happier in Norway. You just need to find a solution to the winter, like perhaps taking your all your holidays in winter or breaking it up with lots of long weekends during the winter.
Either way, best of luck with your move!
No problem, you are entitled to your opinion about Germany or anything else. There are countries where I also refuse to even show the tip of my nose, I have my reasons.
Best of both worlds: Grow up!
Bergen: rain, rain, rain, rain. Even the Irish find it rainy. Spring comes earlier than rest of Skandinavia, butstill as far north as Stockholm and Oslo. Winter is less snowy or not snowy at all in the city, thus darker than Oslo with snow, and very isolated: between Bergen and civilization, there are at least one hour flight or a whole day ferry boat trip. Getting to Oslo by train will take you a day, further to Copenhagen another day. Flight connexions with Bergen are just bad. Lovely city, city dialect is fine, but the dialects just outside (I mean litteraly 10min bikeride outside) are totally different. You'll have to learn the two extremes of norwegian dialects. If you are in love with the fjords, Bergen is the place to be.
Basel: see many relevent threads on this forum.
Tessin: If you are Italian, you have to understand that Tessin is not Italy, otherwise, the locals will make sure you do and you won't like their way of doing it. Definitely the sunniest and closest to mountain fun alternative of your list.
And where exactly in Germany would that be?
It's bit like saying "Switzerland is a crowded place with no trees".
Maybe most Zurich and Basel is, but not the rest of Switzerland.
It all comes down to what sorts of things you like to do in life. I've lived in both places and, aside from the winter darkness, I'd choose Norway without hesitation as I am an ocean sort of person. I like mountains, but I don't ski very well and am not Heidi.
I'm guessing that if you don't like southern Germany, chances are you will be bothered by many of the same things in Switzerland.
I may add a detail that on the long run plays a huge role (I lived 5 years in Oslo, enough to feel it):
Norway is small, people know each other and they don't know you. The bad news is that they never will. You need connections to the networks, and that's the hard part.
One hears the same about Switzerland, but I can compare and that question is, let's say, of unequal relevance in CH and NO.
To me, it comes down to the question: which language do you prefer learning? You'll have to deal with impossible dialects in both cases anyway, so it really only is a matter of taste...
Being a southerner myself, it was very difficult for me to live in Germany: while as a tourist it's wonderful, but they will bite your head off as soon as you try to "steal jobs that are meant for Germans only".
Fun part is Germany is big and has 80 million people. I have foreigner friends that lived in other German cities and have only good things to say. A change of 50km would have been enough for me to feel welcomed. I decided to jump to Switzerland purely due to employment reasons: there is barely any work for us even in big Germany.
In Switzerland you can suffer as much as in Germany, but again it depends on the area you go to. Here the racism and rudeness are a bit better hidden, so might take a while for you to notice people are stepping on your feet on purpose.
Skandinavian winter, on the other hand, is depressing. In December sun was out at 10h, down at 13h. It's not easy, believe me. I had to visit my parents for X-Mas because I was feeling the toll of the lack of sunlight.
They are both difficult and beautiful countries. But considering the economy, I'd look more closely at work possibilities than to the beautiful landscapes...
And how exactly is that different from Norway?
You will have that everywhere. In Norway, you see adds with "nynorsk expected" just to filter out foreigners. They are not that picky with Norwegians who suck at nynorsk, I have names. (Nynorsk=the second written norm of the language, based on western dialects, a whole new grammar to learn).
Fun facts: In Norway, it is forbidden for sterilize a femal pet, it is allowed to castrate a male pet. Draw conclusions if you like.
Oi Faltrad, I never meant that is different from Norway. In fact, the reason I put it in brakets is because the same speech is said in every single country (including the one we all live in currently...).
I have nothing bad to say about Norway, expect that -45°C is f@cking cold and I really don't want to go through that again (though to be honest, I didn't notice that much of a difference after thermometer hit -20°C...).
I like Norway every minute more...
You hit it: below -20, it doesn't matter anymore. I must say that in Oslo, it was only a couple of weeks, max. a month under -15.
The hidden discontempt is high in Norway. When they have a clear mind of who and how you are supposed to be, you can't fight it. I was sitting in front of a school director who doubted that I would be able to understand students in Norwegian because I speak danish... never occured to her that I was understanding her in her horrible Hardanger dialect. No need to say I never had any language issues there.
Norway is definitly a better place for a young woman than for a young man. I was fine because I had the connections via my private life, but job market is largely based on networking, often from high school time. But if one gets the job before moving, it's a good start and one has a chance to make some connections via that work, but don't overestimate that networking either... Norway is not only a country, it's also a tribe. If you forget, that will remind you. Same in Danmark.
Husband, who was at the time living in Lahti, teased me with his "summer like" -15°C temperatures... I had -35°C in Oulu for about 3 months (it was a warm winter, they told me; -50°C the previous year, they told me), and -45°C in Tromso, with cyclonic wind...
Skandinavia winter is awesome
Lack of Safety. Where on earth were you living in Germany ?
Just out of interest, which Southern European country do you come from? It must be somewhere really nice, for you to have issues about the lack of safety in Germany.... My perception may be biased as I'm a Brit, but Germany seemed like a relatively crime free oasis!
Anyway, if Germany is already getting to you, then it sounds like Norway is the place for you .
I was also deciding between Norway and Switzerland. In the end, I chose Switzerland, but it I had more job opportunities here in my field.
If job was no problem, then it would be a coin flip between the two. You get totally different things from each country, but then again, I see the darkness and binge-drinking as a plus!
Norwegian's are definitely friendlier and the language is less inscrutable than Swiss German. I find the rivers, mountains and lakes of Norway to be more picturesque than Switzerland, though I am more likely to Ski and Swim in Switzerland than I am in Norway.
Economy wise, Switzerland had the problems of bad debts and a QE, whereas Norway is oil-dependent and will be hit by the slowdown. Food is expensive in both places and variety is non-existent.
For me also, Norwegians are much more on my wavelength than the Swiss are and I'd much prefer to go out with Norwegian than Swiss people.
Norway is just a normal country: Kosovo-mafia took over the prostitution in Oslo city, the bikers from Danmark come up to northern neighbours too and the businesses of different kinds in Pakistani or Somaali circles are not accessible to outsiders. My ex moved from Töyen/Grönland over to western Oslo because of street insecurity... somuch for safety in Norway. RIght or wrong, i don't know, I left.
Street criminality can be relatively high in some specific areas (Bremen, Münster weekends, Hamburg Skt Pauli side streets, Magdeburg brown districts etc.) But is that so different from Basel downtown, London (you know the place better then me) or French cities? Don't think so.
P.S. I must admit that sex was good in Norway. General liberated but responsible attitude.
if you think german people are closed, you'll be in for a shock when you come to switzerland. this was my scale of openness before i moved to switzerland:
0% |-------------------------| 100%
^
L--Germans
Americans---------------------^
Here is my scale afterwards:
- 1000% |----------------------------------|---| 100%
^Swiss
--------------------------------------------^Germans
I think the Romandie offers a good balance between northern and southern Europe.
LOL This is why Finland gave us avantouinti and sauna.
Besides, it's the dark that makes the winter so long, not the cold, especially since the Nordics know how to make a well insulated and well heated building. That being said, I still shiver at the winter of 2004/5. That reached -35C even in Helsinki iirc.