And, as the parent in question was in such a case NOT in a position the evidence that his/her feelings/interests/belonging got really and directly damaged, there would be no legal claim. To claim that your feelings got damaged by the idea that you child was ..... etc, is no basis for ANY legal procedure.
Had any of the parents, Swiss or NOT Swiss, have complained afterwards, the counter-question would immediately have been "but were you not informed" . If you, for example as a teacher, send a non-registered A-letter two days before an event, and have a copy, it serves as proof that you informed the parents in question. This already was so when letters were done with the original on top and several copy-sheets with a carbon paper on top of each (into the 1970ies).
Hang on a mo' Nick, I am having trouble working out how many people were naked here. Generally,I think the Dad's are supposed to keep their clothes on in the delivery suite.
What would it say in the letter? That your kindy child will be taken to a public place and let run around naked?
This is the thing I am having trouble with.
I do get the nostalgia of childhood of some of us, heck, we spend time here having our child with no clothes on, but it was always quite descrete, it wouldn't surprise me at all in a pool, etc. having families and small kids around, or seeing neighbors in their yeard, since that's how I grew up, too.
What's bothering is the school time, and public place. Instrumentalism. Using kids to keep certain archaic status quo when culture has certainly changed and is no longer what it used to be. It's the same as in some scenario pushing wee kids walk to school in unsafe and inappropriate areas. Things really are changing, some people notice late.
I had a talk about this with a local friend yesterday and I was told it certainly does not hapen in our area and the teachers would have been in trouble should the parents found out. Must be the German nudist thing, to allow teachers have kids take their clothes off in public places.
I welcome kids in pool sites, beaches, back yards, anywhere mildly secluded, to have the comfort of not having to sit in soggy wet suits, etc. But in public parks and in class setting?
I spent childhood on Eastern German beach, sure we were naked, but honestly, with all the old geezers with their shlongs out playing voleyball and staring at us, it was a bizarre experience. Exhibs. I don't really feel like walking in the Alps running into one of them, nor seeing little kids so exposed to public in times they should be secure and protected.
Heck, I knew they were looking at me strangely.
A bit of an "eats shoots and leaves" moment.
Cheers,
Nick
Nothing wrong with kids running around naked under their parents supervision and with their parents say so.
But - if I found out that my child had run around naked out in a public place on a school trip without my knowledge or consent I would be really really furious. That is just not on.
Different issue now:
For those people who still live with the blinkers on and think nothing ever happens in Switzerland it does. When my son was at Kindergarten another Kindergarten had a morning excursion to Kannenfeldpark in Basel. A 5 year old girl went to the public toilet and was raped in there - this was reported in the papers. ShXt happens in Switzerland too.
We know stuff happens here, Switzerland is generally safe but bad people are everywhere. It is all about balance and keeping the parental paranoia under control so kids can still have a childhood.
I think this is where people differ, some consider not wanting their kids naked in public places under other adults supervision common sense, others might see it as parental paranoia.
Some think kids can have fantastic childhood without necesarrily running naked in public parks, others will pick on posters who say it is a no-no.
Knowing stuff happens and adjusting our perception on safety here is not paranoia, but reasonably intelligent thing to do. SOme people take longer than others. There is no need to go into extremes as others posted, why keep kids at home or make a teacher depend on a signed slip. But simply instruct teachers from letting a bunch of kindy kids expose themselves in areas that one would not expect to see naked people. I would not expect to see a naked kindergartener in a park, honestly. Pool, back yard, some kind of resort, etc. yes.
There is a huge difference between adjusting perception & paranoia. Like Nicky said earlier I would hate for Switzerland to turn into the nanny state back home in the UK where kids can no longer be kids and parents are too scared to let their children out of their site for no good reason at all.
Couldn't agree more. I don't think anybody is denying that there are risks out there that could potentially threaten our childrens' safety. Keeping on topic, it seems to me the difference of opinion is whether having two or three teachers supervising the children was enough to manage this particular situation so that the children under their care did not fall prey to those risks. All this discussion proves is that some parents feel the need to go further than others. Is anybody here surprised?
The topic is actually about kids aged 4 - 6 out in public with a teacher naked.
If some parents are happy with their child being out in a park naked without them with (the parents) knowing about it - then fine, that is their decision based on their experience and perception and they shouldn't be judged for it.
The point is, it is not paranoid in the slightest to wish to be informed and then to deny permission for your 4 year old to be butt naked in a public place when you are not there. That's not paranoid - it's a very reasonable parental right and parents who express that wish should also not be judged for it.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with "letting kids be kids" or "restricting kids freedom" It is a judgement parents make to do with how to raise their kids, along with other judgements like the amount of time they watch TV or are allowed to game (when they're older)
I don't understand why people have to paint such extremes - either you support a "restrictive and a nanny state like the UK" or are irresponsible as "there is a pedeophile lurking behind every bush"
Things happen here - we need to be aware of that but at the same time, it's great that kids do have more freedom than in the UK for example, and that too should be celebrated but not in a naive way.
In other words - a balance. If a parent is happy that their child is running naked around a park that's the parents decision and so be it. But parents do need to be informed about these things and if they choose to not to allow their kids be naked in parks, then don't judge them for that decision.
ps) The sun protection issue would also bother me. Melenoma is a huge problem here in Switzerland - one of my good friends lost her husband aged 41 to this a few months ago - it does bring it home when you see someone you know die from this.
I'm not convinced it is, to be honest.
I find it very difficult to believe that the children in question were kindergartners, and if they were, that they were with their teachers.
Something about the OP's tale simply doesn't sit right.
...not least because I can't think when I've ever seen a class of kindergartners out and about without their precious Bändäli hung round their little necks. If the OP had said "stark naked except for Bändäli " I'd have been prepared to believe her.
edit to clarify: not that I'm accusing the OP of making this up. I just wonder whether it really was what she assumed she was seeing. Playdate? Creche? Hard to say, we haven't got a lot of details.
Why would I want to make this story up? I am a mother too, and I am also concern about my kids, and if such things happen. The kids were not anymore young toddlers. And it didn't seem like any moms bringing their kids for playdates. I don't need to justify any further. All I would say, the teachers have the right to stop the kids being naked in public area, during school settings. And as i mentioned earlier, whether parents let their kids run naked, it is up to them. And if the parents grant the kindergarten permission to do so, that's also their choice. And of course, when i saw it, I was shocked, and surely I wouldn't know if the permission was granted. That's why i asked 'Does the society in Switzerland allow this to happen?'
Maybe you could take another look at my post above. I didn't say you were making it up.
What I am saying is that you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion. As far as I've read, nobody else has reported that yes, this is normal, kids at their local school do it. In fact, several people - teachers among them - have said it wouldn't happen at their schools. Everybody else seems to be just assuming for the sake of argument that it does happen, and arguing whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.
I'm glad you're back because maybe we can get some details.
How many kids were there - three or four? Fifteen? All of them running round au naturel or just some of them? How old would you say they were?
Do you know for sure it was a school group? If so, how do you know? Did you talk to the adults in charge? Were they wearing some sort of teacher uniform, did they have textbooks and kiddie rucksacks piled at their feet, or how could you tell?
I'm not picking on you, just trying to establish for sure what was going on. I'm with Dougal's Breakfast, it doesn't sound like any school trip I've ever seen... so maybe there is another explanation for it.
Actually, come to think of it, it does remind me of a school trip I saw once:
Were they jumping over a fire? Did they all have unconvincing Scottish accents?
If so, I think we might have solved the mystery after all...
Nobody has said that you made it up. The suggestion is that you may have been mistaken about your assumption that the group was with their teachers. Did you speak to them or have anything to confirm who they were?
Whatever the make up of the group, it doesn't affect most of the comments or opinions. As you mention that you don't know if permission was granted, it seems to back up the comments that you have made an assumption. It may be quite a reasonable one based on what you saw.
Your question of 'Does Swiss society allow this?' seem to have been answered that it does. None of us know the exact circumstances of whether permission was granted or if any parents were there.
Made up or not, it is still a good debate
Parents will always been judge for what ever the decision they take regarding the education of their kids.
I wouldn't want my daughter to run around naked in a public area without ME being around. That's all, no argument in there, no discussion.
I would be mad if someone would take the freedom to allowed this without me knowing it, saying yes to it.
Pool, beach, private garden, backyard and me around: Yes
All those above and public area where we don't undress ourself like a parc and without me: NO
My child, my family, my rules. What the other parents do, I don't care, it is their business.
A good debate? Perhaps.
Then again, maybe not.
I find the recurring point about parents being notified beforehand about Kindergartners possibly going naked in a park, frankly bizarre.
I am sure that the trip out to the playground, regardless of whether its a Kindergarten or Kinderkrippe would NOT have been planned as a naked event and was more likely to have happened spontaneously.
For pity's sake, let's keep some reality on this...
More likely