Old American Law Student says hello and asks dumb questions...

Welcome and Introductions
1
Hello all,

I've been lurking on this site for a few weeks now exploring the place and I am amazed there is a site like this.

I have an interest in visiting Switzerland with the wife in the next year or so, and maybe some day trying to live there for a bit to get some life experience before I die among other things (my father's family settled in the Austrian lands in Romania and the family is not sure if we originated in Austria or Switzerland, thus part of my interest in the country).

I've searched the site for a lot of different topics, but I wanted to ask a few dumb questions that I did not see the specific answer to while searching. Humor and forgive me for some of these questions; even though some of them make me sound like a middle schooler working on a social studies project, I am genuinely curious.

1. This sounds really dumb, but a friend of mine told me that Switzerland in general is really cloudy all the time. Is this true?

2. Does most of the country get substantial snowfall in winter?

3. Overall, taking everything into account, are you generally satisfied with life in Switzerland? From an outsider looking in, it seems like such a magical place. I noticed that a lot of you realize this and I have skimmed the complaint forum to see that Switzerland, like all places, has its flaws, but I would like to know if most of you are happy to be there over some other place to live.

4. More of a statement, actually. I read the cost of living Switzerland thread and it seems kind of nice that Switzerland is not as outrageously expensive as its reputation sometimes leads people like me to believe.

5. And of course, anyone have any idea what the legal market for American trained lawyers is over there? Inquiring minds want to know if I have any job prospects.

Again, this is a great forum and it goes to show there's always something on the internet for any interest, and thank God for that.

Bed time for me right now, but I'd like to drop back in on this thread and ask other dumb questions as they occur to me. Any responses would be appreciated and I plan on continuing to at least lurk if not outright post.

So....Hi, everyone!

2
Switzerland is a great place to live - most of the time. I still think it is relatively expensive - compared to both the UK and US and there are loads of things that drive you crazy but on the whole its safe, less material than these other two countries and a great place to raise children.

We live in Basel and there is certainly not a whole heap of snow here. I think we had a few days last year but certainly not as much as I expected and not as much as we used to see when living in, say, Zurich. That said I think last year was not renowned for its snow fall so maybe we will see more this year. I will let someone with more knowledge on the topic take the floor on that one.

As for lawyers - from one to another - there certainly seems a shortage. I am English qualified and have been approached by a number of agencies in the last year. There are some very large international companies here who have been struggling to recruit suitably qualified lawyers for months now. I guess it all depends on your areas of expertise and interest. In particular I think firms struggle to find good quality interim staff - there just doesn't seem to be the market. Apologies but I am not sure what the private practice route is here.

It certainly is a beautiful place to live. Hope you get to find out some day soon.

Andie.

3
Switzerland is very expensive for tourists, because anything that requires you to pay for Swiss people's labour, and therefore wages, costs a lot of money, like hotels and restautants. However, when you're living here and not indulging then it doesn't cost too much more than other places if you stay away from the service industry.

There is not much snow in most of the populated areas of Switzerland, it generally stays in the mountains except for a few good snow-falls per year. A good overview of the Swiss climate is at the BBC's weather site . Normally, clicking on the cities mentioned in that article takes you to the average statistics for that city, but it doesn't appear to be working at the moment.

4
1. "...a friend of mine told me that Switzerland in general is really cloudy all the time. Is this true?"

I live in Fribourg/Freiburg (a dual language canton) and I don't find it to be an overly cloudy place at all. I think there is a good mix of weather with plenty of sunshine to enjoy. But, I personally like a good mix of weather condtions. if you want unbiased info though, it's probably best to look for statistical information on the Internet that offers rainfall, sunshine, cloud coverage data, etc. I'm sure it'll be easy to search for.

2. "Does most of the country get substantial snowfall in winter?"

Where I live (at 700m), there is not "substantial" snowfall. There are weather systems that can result in a decent amount of snow which in a colder spell will remain on the ground. But in the two years I've been here, it seems to usually melt away after a bit. The snow will generally tend to remain in areas above 1500m. Again, I like the mix of conditions here.

3. "Overall, taking everything into account, are you generally satisfied with life in Switzerland?"

I really love living here -- the quality of life is good, the people are friendly (oh yes, there are a few jerks here and there, but you'll find this wherever you go), and the landscape is really quite breathtaking.

4. "More of a statement...Switzerland is not as outrageously expensive as its reputation sometimes leads people like me to believe."

It's certainly not the cheapest place to live in Europe, but not "outrageously" expensive either. Probably depends on your lifestyle to a large extent. Services and some goods (like electronics, especially compared to the US) can be expensive, but it's certainly possible to have a comfortable, satisfying life here without "breaking the bank".

5. "And of course, anyone have any idea what the legal market for American trained lawyers is over there?"

I honestly don't know the answer to this as I've never sought employment here. But I'd be interested in the answer too, except that I'm not a lawyer (never took a bar exam), so I guess for me it'd be interesting to know if there are any job prospects for those with a law degree from an American university.

Well, good luck in your search for answers. I come from Northeast US, and although there's a lot to love about that area, I'm finding my living experience here to be extremely enjoyable too. For me, it's "another world" here -- I think because of the beautiful and different type of landscape you find here, as well as the architecture (which gives many of the places a rich historical/traditional feel), and because of the language differences, which can be a challenge in some parts of the country where English isn't widely spoken. But I personally don't want to live here and depend on others to speak English. I want to learn the local languages (for me, French and German) so I can better integrate with the culture and achieve a more well-rounded living experience while I'm here...

5
A shortage of lawyers, eh? Sounds good. Do you know if lawyers are paid well over there in Switzerland? Obviously, I am fluent in English, and I can speak German on a 1st or 2nd grade level. Listening is worse, of course. But I have a good base of German and think I could expand on it pretty quickly with hard work and time. I'm looking to get an internship this summer over there (I'm still in school right now.)

6
Hey, I'm an American lawyer who's been over here in Zurich for over a year now. I'm with a mid-size NGO. We've been in the course of winding down for over two years now (ironically, but fortunately for me, they were still hiring though!) but what gave me the leg up was my German, which frankly isn't the best. Several of the attorneys from our office have gone on to work for the banks. Only a couple have made it to the local firms. Look at their websites & you'll see why: it's a pretty tight market, every one is UBER qualified and speaks a zillion (sorry, a million) languages. But don't give up... mine was a longshot & here I am and I LOVE IT!!! (Except the whole Billag thang , who came to my door today-- thank god I wasn't home-- but that's how I found this group!). Anyway, good luck & keep trying! Try monster.ch too btw.

7
Hey Mitchell,

That's great to hear. Are the salaries competitive over there for NGO's and firms or do you think your budget is a little bit tighter over there than it would in the the US?

Truthfully, it sounds like your German is a good bit better than mine. I might be able to say a decent amount, but once someone started talking, it would be "Nicht so schnell, bitte." A buddy of mine is fluent in German and when he starts talking, I understand every third word it seems.

But it is encouraging that there is some kind of market there for common law lawyers (even if it is a tight one.) I am also glad to hear that you love it.

And pardon my ignorace, but Billag thing?

8
Hey John,

The salaries here get more competitive every day with the falling dollar! And I've only been a government lawyer up til now, so for me it's high cotton.

I wouldn't sweat your german skills. You almost hear as much english in town as swiss, which is largely incomprehensible to even native-german speakers. Only english is spoken in our office, which is a con for me because I really hoped to improve my german. The locals will indulge you and speak in high german for at most two drinks before they slide uncontrollably back into swiss. My wife doesn't speak a lick of german and gets by just fine.

The much-repeated high-quality of life here is no joke though. Their public transportation puts ours to shame. I was in DC myself before I came over here and honestly a day doesn't go by that I don't fall to my knees and yell halleluiah I don't have to take the Metro anymore. You get the best of French and Italian cuisine too, and if you stick to the grocery stores, you can pick it up for shockingly cheap. Wine too. I don't see how Lenin left this place.... I guess the simple answer is in a train.

9
If I can just make a quick remark.

For a 2-4 PQE expect 120K

For a 5-8 PQE over 150K

Note that it is quite difficult to get in a local law firm as Swiss Law is not like American/English law - different roots and is much more like German law where there is also an abundance of German speaking lawyers. However...

There are plenty of Swiss multinationals that struggle to get good English speaking lawyers and do pay quite well. Obviously if you have finance experience, ISDA, netting, structured products, PCCs etc you can more or less choose where you go...

10
Thanks for the replies, Mitchell and Richard.

Richard, when you say 120k and 150K, are you referring to Swiss Francs or dollars?

And Mitchell, I have a love/hate relationship with the Metro, but if the Swiss transit system is leagues better as you say, I imagine is a hell of an impressive system. The Metro is not great, but by US standards, I think it is pretty good.

11
Hi John,

1. This sounds really dumb, but a friend of mine told me that Switzerland in general is really cloudy all the time. Is this true?

It depends on where you live. At the moment we folks in Zurich have gone almost a week without really seeing clear sky. It is called "Hochnebel" and comes in the fall time and sticks around until the end of winter. All one needs to do to escape it is to go a bit higher into the mountains ( a 30 min drive depending on where you want to go) to see brilliant sun.

2. Does most of the country get substantial snowfall in winter?

If you plan on living above 800 meters then yes. The mountains get significant snow fall in the winter time (we hope anyway. . .it keeps the winter sports going) but in Zurich you rarely get snow before Christmas. Most substantial snow fall below 800 meters happens in February. Nothing like what the Mid-west of the States is experiencing at the moment.

3. Overall, taking everything into account, are you generally satisfied with life in Switzerland? From an outsider looking in, it seems like such a magical place. I noticed that a lot of you realize this and I have skimmed the complaint forum to see that Switzerland, like all places, has its flaws, but I would like to know if most of you are happy to be there over some other place to live.

Yes I am satisfied with life here. You must find your own way. Making friends is not as easy as in the states. People are friendly but going over to their house for a bbq or something is a bit different. . . takes much longer. I also speak German and understand Swiss German so I think my integration feeling is far better than a lot of folks.

4. More of a statement, actually. I read the cost of living Switzerland thread and it seems kind of nice that Switzerland is not as outrageously expensive as its reputation sometimes leads people like me to believe.

Some things here are very expensive. Coming from the states you will see that most clothing and eating out etc can be very expensive. Zurich is probably the worst but I imagine that Geneva is not far off. Going to the grocery store on the other hand is less expensive than in the states. . .at least in my opinion. You can find affordable places. If you stick with people on the forum they will point you in the right direction.

5. And of course, anyone have any idea what the legal market for American trained lawyers is over there? Inquiring minds want to know if I have any job prospects.

What kind of law are you practicing? If it is financial or contractual law then I imagine that some bank or law firm would like to have you on their legal team. A girl I studied German with is a lawyer from the states and she got a job at some law firm (the name doesn t come to mind. . .if you look in the legal sector around Zurich I am sure they are mentioned) doing financial law. Other areas will be more difficult.

I also noticed you said "old" in your title, how old are you exactly? This sounds a bit funny but it is an unspoken rule here (some times spoken when you look at job oppertunities in the newspaper) that if you are over 50 the chances of finding a job here are greatly limited (unless you have some super qualification) If you have never worked in Switzerland then an employer would prefer (most of the time) that you are between 30 and 45 at the oldest. If not they just don t call you back for an interview. My suggestion to you would be to send your CV to the most top manager of your law specialty in. . .whatever banks, law firms etc with a fantastic cover letter and a letter of recommendation and skip all of the HR bull crap. The top managers are in the position to make certain decisions about hiring, if they like you then they will take you. HR generally only looks to fill the positions they are asked to.

Hope that helps, good luck finding a job,

Darkphoenix

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Hi DarkPhoenix,

I'm exactly 30 years old and actually still in law school. I'm looking for opportunities when I get out in a year or so. Thank you for your excellent response. Noticing your name and avatar prompts me to ask: Can you get American comics in Switzerland?

13

Hi John,

I will have to keep my eyes open for the comic books, there has got to be a place some where around here. Since I got to Zurich I have not had a lot of time to engauge in "time wasting" activities for pleasure. . . you know read comic books, play video games etc. It has been all work and travel . . .I guess I can't complain.

Oh. . . and don't worry about being 30 years old and "still" in law school. Europeans have a very different idea of what school and learning is. Most people do 1) not go to the university and 2) if they do, it is much less rigid than in the states meaning (and I can't find my source any more ) that most Swiss at least spend an average of 7 to 10 years getting a bachelors degree. The rest of the countries are not far behind. Most of my collegues at school (I am 24 and getting my masters) are at least 30 and starting just starting to get a masters.

Cheers,

Darkphoenix

14
Our guide book (Rough Guide to Switzerland) describes Swiss public transport as one of the wonders of the World, and I have to agree. It is clean, on time, and all over the place. I was in a train once where they offered their sincere apologies for being 5 minutes late.

As for weather, it depends a lot on where you are. Zürich is supposed to be quite gray, Basel has more sun in the winter. And parts of the Rhone valley has something like 330 days of sunshine per year; probably not a lot of legal work for a US lawyer there, though.

15
Hi John, talking Swissies with the salary but that is more or less dollar equivalent these days! Note also that those salaries are without bonuses which for lawyers can be quite high.

With respect to your age, most lawyers here finish at around 30 - some take longer as they go on to take an LLM or even LLD. So being 30 and fresh on the market is not unusual.

The one downside is that you have no experience. If you speak German this is not such a problem but if you don't you are left with multinationals and unless you have an EU passport that *could* make life tough.

16
I'd respectfully ask the original poster, as well as those who have provided specific answers to his questions on this (his introduction) thread to please read the notice which appears at the top of the introduction area:

Posting your introduction - please read first!

Specifically point 2.

Thanks,

Mark

17
Oop. Apologies.