Hi,
I went in Biel in a new apartment (these 4 floor houses built like in the 70s), with the renovation of the apartment made in 2019.
I noticed there is not RCD breaker, just fuses and no switches of any kind. So I checked the plugs. Protection Earth (PE) is connected to N, like in a old TN-C system. But in this system the N wire is also partially marked green/yellow, and here is blue. See attachment.
Also, I am not expert enough to know if is legal to do this in the plug, instead of at the entrance point (see these swiss documents, in Italian, but should make the idea https://www.esti.admin.ch/inhalte/pdf/Fachbeitraege/Italienisch/2_I_Amo_0910.pdf and this https://www.esti.admin.ch/inhalte/pd…145_0619-2.pdf ).
Then the kitchen and bathroom have yellow/green, and if I recall by law they need an RCD and makes sense seeing these wires. But does not makes sense not having an RCD for bathroom and kitchen. The plug in kitchen have the PE green/yellow wire, but no RCD is a red flag to me.
Considering that the TN-C works if is correctly dimensioned, I wonder now if this is the case after I notice these things.
The agency will send the electrician, but if is the same that did the plant, I have little hopes.
So my questions are what are my rights here? Can I ask to a third party without involving the agency? Just for a control. And what would I do if the external electrician say that is not legal?
If you know some good electrician, feel free to let me know.
It is legal until the next official inspection, at which point the inspecter will say to install an RCD for the bathrrom (but NOT the kitchen).
BTDT
Tom
The old system TN-C installation is grandfathered and legal. The DIAZED fuses is the least problem. You can get and pay your own independent sparky which does a official safety inspection. It will cost you around CHF 300.
In the bathroom I have an RCD in the plug inside the mirror. Or do you mean it will be required a general RCD to comply with the bathroom? (for example dispersion detection in the water pipe..)
With grandfathered what do you mean? That the new law won't apply because of the "old building rules"?
And what do you mean that the diazed fuses is the least of my problems? :O
I am aware that in case of ground accident, the system will short and make them trip, but ONLY if the wiring allows the trip current to flow. If the wire is underdimensioned, fire an/or death...
BTW, will I have a leverage against the agency if aftery paying an electrician, it will spot the need for an upgrade?
PS: in the Netherlands the old buildings with no grounding were just removing earth leaving it completely unconnected the third pole... so I guess I should be grateful to see at least this here.....
Thanks!
Exactly, it needs to meet the specs at the time of construction.
Tom
No, just a simple RCD. They installed one in the main fuse board that goes to the circuit that supplies the two bathrooms.
Tom
CHF 185 here!
Most of the problems that he listed (a few swapped P/N, a missing ground, a flat outlet in the bathroom, some live wiring that went to a juction box in the shower), I fixed myself, so the electrician was CHF 250 to fix a couple of other things (convert my 3P plug in extension to hard wired, the RCD), and verify and sign off on the stuff that I fixed myself!
Tom
We have an old distribution board that was upgraded by adding a three-phase RCD on the main feed, so everything is covered.
Then the smaller fuses were replaced by electronic fuses (current limit breakers, without individual RCD).
(above order based on the age of the components)
And then I added a more sensitive RCD for the outside circuit, because it's annoying to trip everything if I do something dumb with a hedge cutter and the submerged pond pump is obviously a point of slightly higher risk.
Do you think I will have some "power" over the agency if I show the report of the electrician? Or are even obliged to upgrade?
PS: is old enough to have only flat outlet (sorry I was calling them plug, but I meant outlets), except the bathroom shitty thing in the mirror
What "power"?
Either it is in the norm, or not.
If not, it must be corrected.
What are you hoping for here?
With a renovation done in 2019, the next inspection is due in 2039!
Tom
My hope is that if I do the check, the agency will carry the upgrade!
If I ask verbally, I have zero negotiation power, I can't just expect they do the work if I kindly ask for it.
Conversely, I wonder if they must in case I carry a legal inspection from a third party technician.
Also is not clear how they managed legally to have this plant approved during the renovation? If is every 20 years.. it must have been upgraded already. I just can't and don't want to tolerate any illegal behaviors in these aspects.
You are assuming that the “renovation” included a rework of the wiring, which is not necessarily the case. Also, renovation may have only involved some circuits, and only those need to be to the new norm. The old ones that aren’t touched can stay on the old norm.
Well, if it is legal now wouldn’t the next official inspection will still consider it legal? It is very rare that the rules change to require rewiring/reconfiguring older circuits.
The authority that has a word on the quality of electrical installations is the ESTI - they have a list of authorized controllers that can inspect an installation and can demand modifications
https://www.esti.admin.ch/en/esti-homepage (you may want to use the national languages versions as the english version is quite empty)
However an inspection usually has to involve the property owner. Normally any electrical work, including inspection, is carried out at the owner’s responsibility, not the tenant. However, if you or an independent electrician identify some kind of fault you can signal an “accident” or “damage” which can trigger an obligatory inspection.
They have a hotline as well.
If they just redid the plaster around the socket box and not touched the wiring they are all good. They didn't even need to have it inspected. The wiring is probably original from long time ago
Not necessarily.... see above
I think is like that. For example they re-did the new floor heating, but there is no thermal valve nor a thermostat, one whole pipe per flat. The water heating system is modern, but the pipes are not, hence one crappy handle to just open more or less the water flowing. Is a system that when all is closed, they sayd it must still flow a bit, even if each flat has it's own pipe.
Since I have like 24 degrees with no one in the house yet when outside are 10, they told me they will try to lower the temperature of the heating system a bit, but I did not noticed much, now I believe anything at this point.
I will keep the windows open in winter. I've never seen anything like that before...
Thanks a lot for the tip! So it is in my rights to insist with the owner, despite the electric system is "legal"? Can the owner refuse?
If the owner refuses I can anyway ask a third party. But what should I do if there is no damage and owner still refuse my request to upgrade? I am also willing to pay to facilitate, even if sound silly...
Grandfathered means that even tough the electrical installation it is not up to the current code it is still legal if according the old code, no major changes are made, and it passes the safety inspection.
It is the same with cars (and many other things). Old cars whiteout ABS, airbags, headrests, other missing safety features, or not meeting current noise and pollution limits can still be driven on public roads. No need to upgrade.
In particular you have no leverage that the owner brings the installation up to current code if the installation passed the safety inspection. They might be willing if you pay for the upgrade, but that can cost a few thousands and might even mean that the whole building has to be brought up to current code, not just your apartment.
The sole purpose of the fuses is that the installation does not catch fire. That's why they might be 6 amp or 10 amp only instead of the 13 amp which is used nowadays.
Recessed outlets only became mandatory in 2017 (earlier in bathrooms). Thus, flat outlets can be found in most buildings.
This is the typical consequence of the absurdly high tradesmen rates in Switzerland. It's cheaper to waste energy than to fix things. And they rather you pay for the energy than them pay for fixing.
If the wiring is legal, you have no leverage, the owner can refuse and you can only get angry. If the system is not legal, then it's between the owner and the authorities and you are just a spectator.
The problem is that determining whether the wiring is "legal" or not as straightforward, even for an electrician - as it may depend on the age of the property and when alterations were made to the circuits. Sometimes this history is lost, even with the owners, when flats get sold, etc. If the owner claims the last change was done in 1991 under the old rules, it's difficult to challenge that...
The wiring in the flat is the owner's property and responsibility. You can only negotiate with him to have work carried out by an approved electrician.
If you want to have your mind at ease, find a local electrician, explain the situation and ask him to come and have a look. He/she should be able to advise you if he spots any safety issue without going too deep into the wiring - and advise you what you can do next
Not sure if this is too specific (I'll try to ask when the electrician pass by), but just to understand, if I see the yellow/green cable which is not blue (N), it is separated from N -at some point-. The sole purpose of this is to detect a residual current with an RCD after the separation.
If I understand the situation with the outlets, which adhere to the old system, and therefore the ground is also the N and no RCD, on the other side I don't get the situation with the bathroom/kitchen that has a yellow/green cabling but I don't have an RCD (and not even a panel inside the apartment).
Are the energy meters carry some sort of RCD?
It's a new law, since the early 2000, so no.
Tom
Yes, if it's legal they can and WILL refuse!
No need to change something that is in order!
Tom