PPE meeting- need help!?

Daily Life, Swiss News and General Topics
1
Hello all,

We are having problems with our PPE, PPE meetings and our neighbors. Can anyone offer some tips? It is a small chalet and we are one of 6 units. We are foreigners although been in the town for 30 years, owned for 14 years. I never had a good (or any) idea of the PPE rules, rules for the meetings etc. We do have the rules for OUR PPE though. I am trying to get it all sorted out and settled down. What I can say is that we have been ignored, not given notification of discussions and decisions, not given a chance to vote on issues etc. basically trampled on.

We have (had) been very friendly with the neighbors. But 2 years ago when we began to ask questions or make requests, they attacked and turned us into enemies!! ( ex. we tried to ask: why there is a huge carton of mail and paper under the mailboxes?? Why are empty cartons from the store allowed in the hallway also under the mailboxes (ours)? Why are there skis and bikes in the laundry room?? Can we please put something, like potted plants at the back walkway where there is a blind drop-off which is VERY dangerous? We would like the peeling paint in the basement, where ours and another studio are, painted- like it was done upstairs for all the other units..........Everything we ask gets shot down with a cannon! They really have been walking all over us...and I didn't realize it until recently.

Currently, the new (2 years) administrator is the boyfriend of one of the owners.... There is an obvious conflict of interest in multiple areas.

Bottom line, we are ignored, lied to, abused and currently ostracized. It feels awful. Would anybody like to share some basic, understood rules for both the meetings and also daily life in a small PPE?? Is there a book I can read- or something??

Thank you for any help or tips!!

2
Well if you are owners you have the same rights as any other owner and definitely have the right to vote at meetings of the PPE. The voting rights may be weighted as a function of the size of your particular property, but that doesn't prevent you from voting.

Meetings have to be called formally with an agenda, which has to be sent out in advance of the meeting, usually 10 days or 2 weeks, depends on the rules. You can ask for additional items to be added to the agenda, but in most cases you will have to do that in advance, not wait for the day. That allows the committee to prepare information.

It's not unusual to have the owners administer the PPE. In my case, all the administration is carried out by a committee of owners. However many PPEs outsource the administration, usually to a Régie. My experience with Régies is that they are expensive and not very effective, but there is the advantage of having an external person to resolve disputes.

If you have questions about how your PPE operates, try and have a talk with the administrator. After all, that's part of their responsibilities. And have a read of the PPE rules, which ought to have been given to you when you bought the property. You may find some answers there.

(For those in the German speaking part, PPE = Stockwerkeigentum).

3
Thank you a lot. I understand what you write...and understood more or less those rules for some time. The problem is that they DO have votes and make decisions without giving us any notification at all. The old admin was voted out and the new admin voted in without us knowing anything. Not until many months later the new admin sent an email- we were clueless!! Subsequently, I saw the form with the names for that particular vote and ours was blank. They also cleverly say: "well, a note was posted on the window of the shop, sorry you didn't see it" It is really strange. It's been about 2 years since the new admin and we have not had a meeting. New admin set it for last july '21 and in march '21 cancelled the meeting due to covid. (outside, zoom...?) At the time the meeting was set, I provided my 4 requests/points to discuss for the agenda. Rhey were ignored, nothing was written up. But another neighbor told me they had decided that there was not any money for my request (the paint). So therefore, they do discuss and decide amongst themselves.....This admin is being paid by our PPE!!

It appears their motivation is they all like it without agreements because the things they do, or buy, is to their benefit. For example, none of them use the washing machine because they have their own in their apartments. So somewhere along they decided to put wet skis, electric bikes (charging up) extra packing boxes, extra bathroom tiles etc etc etc in the laundry room for their convenience. The store owner puts display racks of clothes in the front hallway despite that it is forbidden in the PPE rules. etc. They just don't care.

Anything else I should/ need to know??

Thank you!!

4
It might make sense to have a lawyer look at the arrangements, since it sounds that they are taking your financial participation and not using it for common benefit. I do not know if you have a renovation fund but with the governance in place now, I would be concerned.

I can pm you the name of a lawyer in Vaud if you like.

5
Yeah, I was ygoing to say best to have legal insurance if you don't already. It would take some going through of the statutes of your PPE and then find the right recourse.

Making random comments or complaints, even if justified, is likely only to make things worse with the neighbours. If your options do not include selling and moving, best to find some way of bettering the situation otherwise your life there could become miserable.

You probably need some professional help to use the right measures and address the real problems through the PPE. The Swiss like the rules and you have to use them in the right way to your advantage.

6
Thank you to each of you.

Yes, there is a renovation fund. This past year it is being used for some work on the building which needed to be done...it had been decided upon years ago... I asked something about the nature of the work and about the protection of the owners property- us and the neighbor- because out awnings would be affected, our grass and newly planted bushes and so on. It was surprising the contempt with which they responded. Was this an unreasonable question on my part to ask, could any of you say?? It is so confusing.

7
You are probably right to complain, but I'm not sure how effective it will be. PPE meetings can be like the mafia, in any country not only in Switzerland. If you have money for a lawyer, it can be good to know what you can actually achieve.

8
PPE meetings can be quite unpleasant. In my previous place they often went on till past midnight.

That said, it does look at first sight that you have grounds to complain. Most PPEs have an obligation to call meetings very formally. You can't simply just talk about it to your buddies or put up a notice. In my first place (with a Régie) they came out Recommandé, though in my current place we do it by e-mail. In principle you could challenge any decision taken at a meeting that hasn't been formally convened. However, before going down that route, think carefully about what you want to challenge. It can easily end up being very messy and unpleasant and don't forget they are your neighbours, and you have to live with them.

If you are going to challenge them legally, I think you probably need proper legal advice. I'm anything but a lawyer.

9
Thank you all again.

Oh what a situation. In the past 18 months they have voted to remove the last admin, vote in a new admin. (boyfriend of an owner) for pay, order a new expensive washing machine, decide on laundry room fees to charge us and one other studio, construct a roof over back door, have their hallways painted (not our area of the building with peeling paint), use the laundry room for their storage (they have their own washers in their units), use the common hallways for storage of empty cartons from the store (belonging to an owner) and use the front entrance communal hallway for display racks for the store, use our terrace area for rain collection buckets (they even stand right in front of our glass doors, on our terrace area, to weed and water the planters at 8 am and 8 pm and in between, while we are right there!! ..... ALL of this without our knowledge, agreement, vote or otherwise. The record of vote to ouster the admin and vote in a new one had our name on with a blank space next to our name. As though by choice we didn't vote. We never saw/got it!!! We didn't know until months later when I got an email from the new admin (boyfriend of owner).... btw, not explaining who he was or why he sent an email. All of these things are against the PPE regulations. Their excuse/answer the couple of times I said: hey, wait a minute, we need to discuss/agree or vote, or whatever...they say is that they had enough votes without us and that therefore they didn't have to let us know anything.

Anymore thoughts on this??

10
Even if your vote might be the minority, you still must be sent the meeting agenda. get the old protocol, and be invited. They cannot just decide secretly on their own w/o you knowing anything.

It looks like some basic rights are violated. Get a book on Suisse PPE rules and regulation or seek help from an expert, like from the Chambre vaudoise immobilière CVI .

11
Thank you a lot for these suggestions.

Yes, they decide most things without (our) voting, notification etc....and even sometimes the minutes are missing.

We also get verbally attacked (and by email) especially by the owner/girlfriend of the new admin. and the shopkeeper.

Could you say where one might find a book on PPE regulations? I've been searching to no avail.

12
Are you willing to invest your own time and treasure looking into/trying to change the situation?

If so, my first thought is, as Mica suggests upthread, engage a lawyer to look into the PPE regulations to get an idea as to possible steps to take going forward. If there are other unhappy owners who might agree to join you in that, all the better.

If the PPE regulations are not being followed, a lawyer would likely be the best person to suggest possible remedies. Given how bad things sound, I would guess that an outside expert opinion would be valuable before you try to do anything on your own.

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When it goes wrong, any kind of ownership in common can become a living hell - BTDT and I feel your pain.

We had a similar situation in our Quartier home owners association; the association was set up so that an owner volunteered to act as administrator. The long time administrator, let's call her Hyacinth Bucket, felt it her divine right and duty to dictate what would be done whenever the common areas came into question. (And to dictate how everyone should live.)

The annual owner meetings were so excruciatingly unpleasant that I just kept my head down and tried to stay out of the line of fire. As a newly arrived foreigner I knew I had no ability to change things, so I just waited it out.

Fortunately, one year an argument boiled over, Hyacinth Bucket made a great show of threatening to resign, expecting to be begged to stay on as admin - and one brilliant and brave soul took the chance then to propose a vote to thank the dictator for her years of service - and then to move administration of the home owner's association to a professional outside group. I've never before or since seen the neighbors vote in agreement so quickly.

Our annual meetings are still a bun fight, still excruciating - but at least the outside manager understands that his role is to draw fire in that bun fight.

Which is to say - if other owners are also unhappy, one thing that a lawyer might help with is to see if there is a path to moving administration to an outside professional. It will cost the owners a yearly fee - but what you save on ulcer medication might make it worth while.

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Wishing you all the best.

13
Thank you...it helps to know there are others who have problems with the PPE....but I don't wish it on anyone.

And we all pay the new admin (boyfriend of owner) to do the admin work. Without getting into the details, there IS a major conflict conflict of interest with him/them.

We absolutely do need to know definitively what are our rights.

We would rather solve this without getting to a legal issue.... not even so much about the money but that we do not want to make enemies all over the place. It is a small village and we love it there... or we did We even used to like our neighbors, until they exercised their right to be not nice.

It is really weird from my p.o.v.

But we aren't against legal advice to ensure we are on the right path.

I'd still rather resolve things as a group of grown-ups. If is is possible??

14
Well if you took the advice from aSwissInTheUS then looked at the link they recommended you would find a book called "Rules of administration and use PPE – 2019"

This book might be helpful?

They also offer course like "Aspects de la PPE" and give advice.

15
For the cardboard, just ask your local fire brigade for advice as this is a fire risk.

16
Thank you all for your help and advice on this.

17
Getting legal advice is not the same as taking legal action. It is first and foremost about getting information and guidance.

Short overview of the most important aspects:

https://www.raiffeisen.ch/casa/fr/co...ar-etages.html

Books:

Guide de la propriété par étages PPE, Chambre vaudoise immobilière CVI, 2012

https://cvi.ch/category/publications/guide/

(The "Règlement" books are optional bylaws for your PPE to make things easier. You can get them as well to get an idea how things can be done in a civilized way)

Guide Propriété par étages, Chambre immobilière neuchâteloise.

https://www.cininfo.ch/publications/...te-par-etages/

Le guide de la PPE et du voisinage, William Türler, 2014, Edition Plus.

Propriétés collectives, Amédéo Wermelinger, 2021, Helbing Lichtenhahn.

That's an up to date book which goes into very great detail of the rules set by the law.