There is a Romansh-English dictionary publish, and I picked up a copy in Ilanz a couple years back. I'll have to have a look for it so I can come up with the ISBN, though it's probably available via Amazon as well.
BTW, I know a few romansh speakers, but most of them don't spend any time with computers. Without exception, all the ones I know also speak Swiss-German.
Is this the one?
Romansh-English/English-Romansh Dictionary and Phrasebook
Author(s) : Gross, Manfred ; Telli, Daniel
ISBN10 : 0781807786
ISBN13 : 9780781807784
Format : Paperback
Pub. Date : 9/1/1999
Publisher(s) : Hippocrene Books
Hippocrene are brilliant for dodgy obscure languages.... I used to have lots of fun with them before I became a foreigner meself, like... innit?
There is also a very comprehensive online translation option
http://www.pledari.ch/mypledari/index.php
This will translate into the various dialects as well. This gets extremely confusing
Could be, though I thought it might be a different publisher. Anyways, I think it is the same.
ElieDeLeuze:
Thank you for the warm welcome and the information. So, from what you can see, it looks to be more Puter than Lombardese? I believe that's pretty much what the lady at Lia Rumantscha said. I just didn't realise that the language had changed that much over the years, but it was brought here to america about 100 years ago. It has been frozen during the time we have been using it here. I would guess that the language that was used in Dorio Italy, being so close to the Engiadina, and with the travel and trade that took place in those days, might explain the reason for the language being so Rumantsch. Often, my mom and I will wonder how to say a word, and we will look it up in a dictionary that is made for the region along the lower part of Lake Como, and is called Leccese, from the city/province of Lecco. It is considered to be the dialect for that region up to the last cities where the province of Sondrio begins. Although there are many words that are the same or close, often times we find that their words are more Italian words. Then I will look in my mini-dicziunari per Rumantsch Grischun, and there it is.... Often times, when I read the word to my mom, she say, "That's it! I remember it now!" Sometimes I try to fool her and tell he the Italian word, but she will tell me that it's not that word. Next I will read the word form the lecco dialect, and sometimes it's a match, but we have more luck in the Rumantsch. The part that's hard for me is the accent they use on RTR. Our accent is a little more French sounding. The accent I hear on the Ladin streams is similar to us, but it sounds to be more Italian, and more Italian words than we use. I guess that it's like you say, that there were many variations depending on where you lived. Also, I heard that there were pocket dialects... like an area of Italian right in the middle of a Rumantsch area, or the other way around. I know that most people in the city of Dorio, Olgiasca, Chiavenna, and Sondrio all speak Italian. The ones that do speak Dialect, it sounds like a very weak version of what I speak. It's like that are still speaking Italian, but with a touch of my language, but only mixed in. Their accent is till Italian, not like mine. Some of my words almost sound German at times, while others are more French sounding. I don't know if it's allowed to do so, but "if" you are interested in seeing comparisons, I can show you what I have as downloaded samples of Dolimitic Ladin, Puter, Lombardese, and how I would say it. The samples I have are based on what I downloaded form that website that has the Lord's Prayer. I am not sure if that would be considered to be offensive or against the system rules. It is the best source of comparison material I have, and for me, I find it very interesting to see the differences and similarities. I hear that there is a proposed standard that's being worked on for the Dolimitic Ladin. The hard of hearing man who helped to develop the Unified Rumantsch Grischun is the same man who started the work on this language, but he passed away before it was completed. I mention he was hard of hearing because I am, too. I grew up very hearing impaired, and hearing aids did not help my kind of loss. The new technology has helped me to the point that I can now work as an interpreter for the Deaf, myself! No one can tell that I used to have poor speech. I sound perfectly normal. When I was 20, I started to make up for lost time in learning my family language. I knew only the little bit I could hear and understand. I am fluent in all 5 forms of signing systems used in the US, and the primary system of American Sign Language, based on the old original French signing system. I help mentor other new interpreters, and also share with those who will listen, about Switzerland, the Engiadina and lakes and Alpes of Lombardia. They are amazed that there is a 4th language for our country, as many Americans are unaware of much of what's going on in Switzerland or Italy. I have been working on bringing awareness to people here, in the church, also, where I work in Deaf Ministry. I share with them an opportunity to see my Bibia in the Puter/Vallader, and explain how some English words have their roots in the Latin language. I also have worked on developing a legal low power FM transmitter for limited range local transmission, and have provided community service information about Northern Italy and the Engiadina. My roommate says that I'm somewhat obsessed. He said that when he hears me listening to the RTR, and every other word that they say is the word Rumantsch, and that I'm the same way. To some extent he's right, but it's a matter of cultural pride. I was born and raised in America, but I haven't really assimilated the American culture that much. I was raised to be Swiss Italian FIRST, American Second. I do not hate America, but my heart has and always will be in the Alpes, and that's where I will be in about 5-10 years when I have saved up enough money to move. I have next to no family here, but have met so many relatives over there, and I feel at peace. Hearing a radio station that's in a language so much like what my family had spoken for hundreds of years, discussing cultural issues, family values, and things of substance and so on are captivating to me. I do not listen to American radio at all. I respect those who enjoy that is offered here, but I just don't relate to it. I feel fortunate that I was able to learn as much as I did from my family, and that I have a strong sense of self, and truly desire to return to what I really consider to be home. Being that most of my nearest relatives are on the Italian side of the border, I'm probably never going to be able to become a citizen of Switzerland as was my past ancestors. I don't know their names. I know the names of the ones that live on the Italian side. I know that the last names are found in the Engiadina and north Lombardia, so, I can't really prove much by that. It's fine with me to be a citizen in northern Italy. It would have been even better if I would have been able to have dual Italian and Swiss, but I leave that all up to fait.
My warmest regards,
Tom
Is your English language dialect, void of paragraphs?
I find your writing very interesting if I could get my poor eyes to read it.
I have that dictionary/phrasebook. I bought it at the Lia Rumantscha. At the same time I also picked up the very small Mini-Dicziunari. The verb conjucations, word order, past, present, and futer tense structures are all perfect in the dictionary/phrasebook. The Dictionary offers many more words, but the phrasebook is a good thing for the individual who has no skills in Rumantsch at all.
Tom
I created the message in a word processing software package. I coped the contents, then pasted them into the box. For whatever reason, my browser seems to keep everything together. It must be something that's set incorrectly. I wouldn't like to read something like that either, but I frequently do. Some of my university text books are like that. I understand exactly what you mean,
Tom
Just put some returns into the text that winds up in the post editing box and it should be okay.
Thanks for the formatting suggestion. I will see if it works.
It would appear that I need to add the extra lines manually, and that's fine. As long as I can separate the lines for better readability.
Eu sper che vus avais un semena bun. (I hope you have a good week.)
Tom
I have four Swiss friends who speak Rumantsch as their first language (one from Illanz, one from Saas and two from Obersaxen). They are very proud of this language and it is a beautiful language to listen to. There are still programmes on SF1 in Rumantsch. As far as I know, it is Latin-based and is fairly easy to pick up if you have previous knowlegde of Spanish, Italian, or French.
The two Obersaxers were work colleagues of mine and often spoke to each other in their 'secret' language...until one day they noticed me snickering at their conversation (I can understand quite a bit of it). They were more careful after that
Your friends from Illanz and Obersaxen probably speak Sursilvian, based on the locations.
Your friend from Saas is not in an area known for Rumantsch. It is not in an area that is even close to one. It is located directly north of the Piemonte in Italy. Their dialect is similar to French and Lombardese, but not really Rumantsch.
The very north Alpine Lombardese right next to the Engiadina can be most nearly the Puter idiom of Rumantsch, as is the case with my family. As far as your friend from Saas goes, his area isn't close enough for that - he's just too far away. Maybe he learned it from family or friends, or perhaps was raised in one of our Rumantsch speaking areas. Most of the Rumantsch areas are a bit closer together, and the Sursilvin would be the closest one to his location, but not very close at all.
Da tuts idioms Rumantschas, eu cred chel Sursilvin es pli difficil per me. (Of all the Rumantsch dialects, I believe that Sursilvin is the most difficult for me.)
Do you happen to know if the SF1 has streaming web access for their Rumantsch broadcasts? I listen to the RTR on the web, also the RAI Ladin broadcasts (I have to find that URL again... I lost it.......)
I enjoyed your comments, and welcome any others.
Tom
Cheers. My friend is from Saas near Davos GR, which is really really tiny, are you maybe thinking of Saas Fee (Wallis)?
Interestingly enough, I can barely understand her dialect, but I find the Obersaxers fairly easy to understand (I'm fluent in French, and speak a smattering of Spanish and Italian).
Sorry, the only live streaming I know of is http://www.rtr.ch/rtr/radio/index.html?siteSect=30000 which you already mentioned.
Fascinating language and culture really. Shame that it is diminishing, however those whom I know who speak it are passionate about the language and are trying to keep it alive by speaking it at every oppurtunity.
......................
If you have knowledge of a Romance language (for me, Spanish), then it's not as bad as it looks. Of course, Spanish borrows heavily from Arabic (Spain being so close to Morocco and Algeria), so there are alot of different things and sentence structures. All in all, very able to learn.
to EF, Bayboro91!
I suspect that led you to EF and this thread? May I suggest that you introduce yourself in the Introductions forum.
I actually made some experiment about that. Which Romance language does help understanding Rumantsch?
- French: helps a lot on the condition that you are native and with a flexible mind
- Italian: Rumantsch ladin is readable without courses with minimal vocab problems, Sursilvan requires an introduction to its crasy vowel shifts.
- Spanish: my only spanish source is a teacher colleague (from Galicia) and she said her knowledge of French was more useful, but it makes it easy to get into the language.
- Romanian: I asked a student of mine at school, he understands most of the newspaper but needed some grammar help (verb forms) and wome words.
- Portugese: my only source is a course participant last autumn, she said it makes it easier to remember, but not to understand without any other help.
I recently visited my family in Dorio, not terribly far from the the Swiss/Italian border. While I was there, I also visited the Lia Rumantsch and Cesa De Jan. The Cesa De Jan is focusd more on the Ladin spoken in the Dolomites, though similar, it's not the same as Rumantsch. Still, an interesting sister language. I also visited two locations of the Lia Rumantsch. One of them was in the area where Surmiran is spoken, and the other was in the area where Vallader is spoken. The one in the Vallader was not terribly big compared to the one in Chur, and the one in Savognin.
Mr Baltermia spoke great English! I explained to him the situation of my family, and how our language was brought here to the US around 100 years ago by my grandmother and her sisters. It was passed down to my mom, and then to me. The location in Lombardia is at the edge of the Valtellina. When people think of that location and "dialect", they think of Lombard. In actuality, the area was a part of the Grison until the late 1800's. My family members brought over a language that is not the Lombard dialect as we know it today. My language is a mix, yet I cannot understand Lombard in print - not at all! When I look at the websites in Ladin Standard, I can understand some of it, but when I look at the RTR website in the unified Rumantsch Grischun, I can understand quite a bit of it.
I have a Bible in Vallader, and I can understand it "so-so", depending on the section. While I was at the Lia Rumantsch in Chur, I had the chance to look at a book from the Bible (not sure which one it was), and it was printed in the Puter idiom - - - W O W ! ! What a difference ! I really liked that one a lot! I was sad to find out that there is no Bible in Puter.
I find it interesting that the Swiss refer to "Puter and Vallader" as "Ladin". They are not the same, and they are not the same as Ladin in the Dolomites. I regret not buying that book, but I will look it up on their website and see if I can. I have heard so many people say that Vallader and Puter are nearly the same, and maybe in speech they have a great deal of similarities, but as for my ability to read it, the Puter was so much easier for me. Maybe it's because I'm not fluent enough with the language. Even so, I did enjoy listening to the RTR before I lost much of my hearing on the vacation - ear infection in both ears. They've been working on clearing it up for the last 3 months! I need a second operation. I hope it works "fitg bun" - Yeah, I know I'm not spelling it in my Puter, but I'm tring to be flexible and learn the new Rumantsch.
Best wishes to all,
Tom (Dorio)
Rumantsch ladin is Vallader+Puter, right. I think they might have felt a common identity because they have always had contact with each other, it is the same valley. It was harder with the other ones. The vocab is clearly the same, Puter being a little bit more archaic. From what people in San Murezzan told me, the dialects of the Bregaglia (Bergell) valley are more italian but still very easy to understand for Puter speakers and they don't translate among themselves.
Native speakers of both understand and read the other idiom without ever look in the dictionary. Once you've understood the vowel changes (a/o, a/e, a/au and ü/ieu), you're already half way through. Puter is dying out, really. Samedan is the last cultural centre in Engiadin'ota, but even there, Rumantsch speakers are clearly in minority. They are introducing bilingual high school German/Rumantsch because a purely Rumantsch education is totally unthinkable nowadays. Vallader is still a language in the community and young people in Scuol or Müstair speak Rumantsch among themselves.