Singapore vs. Zürich - Wages and Others

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1
Hi all,

I'd like to have an opinion about a possible move to Singapore. I decided this move 'cause I'm getting stuffed with the poor opportunities in my area (trading systems development), so I've looked around and found out that Singapore could be the right place due to many reasons, first off less regulatory constraints and much more focus on the automated trading technology. I did my homework, say I got to know some comparative parameters like house, food and healthcare costs. I see that houses, as weird as it might seem, can be more expensive than Zürich, while food and healthcare can be cheaper.

My doubt is around the wage I should expect.

Say, having as benchmark 120K CHF, what would the SGD equivalent be? Of course, I'm not talking about CHFSGD exchange rates - .

Cheers

Nick

2
I think, you have to realize a few important points

> Houses in Singapore most likely are more expensive as Zch HAS a "hinterland" while SIN does NOT

> food in Switzerland may come from all over the world, but it mostly comes from relatively expensive Europe (CH included)

> SIN is a SEAport city of relevance, while there is no seaport here

> SIN is in the midst of an area with lots of still non-exploited potentials, while Zch is in the midst of a Western Europe which has to fight to retain its level

I spoke about such things with three guests from Singapore, and my handicap was that I never was in Singapore but I had just shown them around in Zürich , but one thing became clear, and that is that "regulatory constraints" in the two cities are very different, but in the end in both cases fairly strict.

We from both sides did not have the feeling to be from exceedingly "free" places, but shared the feeling to be from places with fairly liberal views and a good "fighting spirit". Among them was a half-Chinese/half-Malaysian, a Pakistani from the Punjab and an Italian and they all felt very well in Singapore. So, if you see some attractive things from you there, do not hesitate to go there, but please be realistic and do not complain half a year after your arrival there about this and that and this and that

Similarities ? Zürich back in 1848 was nr. 4 in Switzerland, behind Basel (nr. 1), Luzern (nr 2) and Bern (nr 3) and hardly of relevance. It was Mr Alfred von Escher (yes, the man on the Bahnhofplatz !) who moved the place ahead. Singapore back a hundred years was nothing, with Shanghai being the commercially leading place in East Asia, and then by some energetic folks was pushed ahead.

Realities ? Yes, let's see that Heinrich Pestalozzi was not a humanitarian idealist, but a tough businessman who realized that a modern economy needs a well educated workforce and not useless heaps of illiterates ! And Henri Dunant was a rich businessmen who when on a business trip to the Lombardy saw battles raging and decided that something needed to be done. His Red Cross was built up in the end by that officer, General Henri Dufour, the man who not only won the Swiss Civil War of 1847/48 but also had a major influence onto the Swiss Constitution, the Red Cross, Cartography. The man who in effect steered Switzerland through WWII, General Henri Guisan, was not a very democratically minded civil rights enthusiast, but an admirer of Benito Mussolini, who only got disgusted when B.M. joined forces with Adolf Hitler

Realities in Singapore are different of course but not that MUCH different. The "makers of the modern world" usually are NOT true democrats (exception = Thomas Jefferson) but rather authoritarian chaps !!

3
Have you ever been there? If not, I suggest you hop on a plane and take a couple of weeks holiday there just to see what you think.

Consider this for a moment: Switzerland has a population density of about 186 people per square kilometre. That's quite densely populated already. Singapore has a population density of over 7,200 per square kilometre. Some people love it, some hate it, but you won't know whether you will like it until you go there.

4
Answering the Q specifically - you should be looking at the same number in SGD.

The quality of life and lifestyle is completely different in Singapore. I have been here only for a month and have worked/lived in Singapore and i can only say that i like both places for different reasons.

The housing costs have gone up considerably. International schools will cost about the same (2000 USD a month or so). Public transport is as good or comparable to what it is here in Switzerland. food is damn cheap - dont cook a thing at home and eat out completely! The place is indeed crowded but then i liked it for different reasons and in the same breath i do like the quietness of Switzerland without these crowds. Traveling is cheap to the whole of South East Asia and i loved that part very much. Long working hours can be an issue - I have seen people work over the weekends too. Help for household chores is cheap. The weather is different - it is warmer and it stays like that for the whole of the year.

All the best in case you decide to move!

5
I don't live in Singapore but have a number of friends who live there and have visited several times---and my insight echoes what others have said here.

Singapore is EXPENSIVE, especially the housing, although by Swiss standards it may not be much different. Yes, street food is cheaper, and as a travel hub, flying out of Singapore is usually cheap and easy, but compared to Thailand or Bali, Singapore is like a CH of Asia.

If you like mountains and solitude--and winter--then Singapore's is the LAST place you would want to go.

If you like beaches, heat, sun, and rain, then give it a try. There is no doubt that SG is definitely has strong growth and is a major hub of SE Asia, so there will be opportunities there for sure. And I think you should be able to save more there than CH, all things being equal...

6
Thanks very much for all your insights, much appreciated.

7
I have lived in both and enjoyed living in each of them for different reasons. Housing is expensive in Singapore as it is here but everything else is cheaper eating out, public transport, food etc. Singapore is a wonderfully lively city with great bars and restaurants and shops that open on Sunday! However it can feel a bit small and if exploring is your thing it won't take long to have seen everything. This may seem obvious but it is hot, very hot and humid and frankly I never really got used to it, playing tennis, running etc was never much fun. So really it depends what you like, for a great and interesting city experience then Singapore is great but if you like the outdoors stay where you are. Unless things have changed recently tax is low - super low!

8
Hi, I was there just over 20 years go for a week to 10 days. Singapore is a very clean place. The MRT, their equivalent to London Tube or the Metro is clean, no food or luggage allowed. If you are looking for accommodation it would have to be an apartment. Land is at premium. To get a house and garden you have to be someone, money will not talk, it is to stop people who have accummulated money through ill gotten methods. Mainly the buildings are built high. I believe the people who live there buy their apartments with their pensions or something, sometimes the next generation might still be paying. It is common for generations to be living together. Air conditioning is a must inside and for cars. Car parking is difficult, maybe expensive. Did hear of one HR person, who would be put off employing someone if they had a car, as the company had a shortage of parking places. From what I could see, apart from working and yes they might work long hours, their recreation was either spent eating out or shopping. As previous stated domestic workers are cheap. Eating out, you pay what you want, there was some very glamorous places to eat out. Alternatively there are umpteem 'Hawker' markets - these are places where the 'hawkers' are all together with seating. You choose from whichever 'Hawker' (Hawker = stall cooking food) what you want and tell them your table number. One family I knew the husband would always stop off at one on his way home to eat, he worked long hours. They had live in domestic worker. For their weddings as they treat everyone as equal, they would cater for all, ie if one was Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Vegetarian etc. I have admiration for their government.

If you are still thinking of going, then highly recommend a holiday there. Whilst there you should take advantage of the shopping, apart from the many shopping centres they have, recommend both China Town and Little India for the bargain hunting. in both China Town and Little India you have to bargain on the prices. Believe most of the other shopping centres have fixed prices. There are a number of sight seeing trips to do, I recommend the one around the island, ie to get out of the main city, to include Har Par villa where all the budda statues etc are, as well as include a Temple on the way. Separately somewhere in the old part of Singapore by luck I found an old India Temple, as I had taken myself off by myself and asked a local gentleman for directions who told me about it. They also had large area shopping at the airport.

I am very fond of Singaporeans, enjoyed my visit, would visit again if I had the money and time, but dont think it is somewhere I would choose to live long term now at this stage in my life.

9
Singapore is cleaner than Zürich. The MRT is incredibly efficient, fast, and clean. No smoking, eating, or drinking is permitted, even on the platform. Luggage is permitted if you are going to or from the airport. It can be crowded at peak times, but if you're white, then you'll get a bit of extra space.

Absolutely. Five minutes outside and I'm sweating like a pig.

They do work long hours, and there is a culture of not leaving until after your boss has left. But generally Western expats are exempted from this - you'll hear comments like "why do the ang mo leave so early (la)".

10
I have a friend who lived in Singapore for around two years. She said what has been posted about prices in previous posts. She was not able to save any money though, because she was traveling around in Asia while she was living there.

Many people say that as an expat you live in a bubble. Even more than in other cities. I guess because a lot of people in Singapore are expats.

11
wages seem to be going through the roof too. many companies are having a hard time keeping employees. i know some seeing 30%+ turn over rates each year and employeers are getting 30%+ payrises on each move.

a guy i know here in zurich was recruiting for a role in singapore which i expected to pay maybe 200k CHF tops in switzerland and he was having to pay around 250k CHF, plus car, plus accommodation, plus other benefits. staff who reported to him were driving ferraris!

i joked that if he was going to pay me 250k and give me a house and ferrari, i might be tempted to move to SG, myself

12
Once you get your Ferrari, please get me a job in Sg too.

13
to be honest, i hate the weather in SG and am far too used to easy european working hours to work crazy asian hours. you'd have to pay me double to even consider it!

14
I want an expat job in Sg, a standard 37.5 to 40 hour week. I don't want a "proper" Singaporean job, they're not fun.

15
This is very interesting discussion. Any recommendations for job portals.

16
Sometimes I have to work here for 14 hours a day or 21 days without a break

(here in zurich) to get the goals or to finish the work before the deadline .

I think there is not much difference between the two cities, it depends what

industry you are working in

17
I moved from Zurich to Singapore last September. I love it, but as others said: the building I live in has about as many flats as an average Swiss village - only stacked vertically on top of each other. You either hate this density or love the action, I love it.

Salaries is a difficulet topic as there is a huge range from shitty paid jobs (to all the non-management IT guys on EF - Singapore is in 99% not for you...) to extremely well paid jobs, especially in banking. Rule of thumb is that at VP level (or "director" in UBS) the salary between CH and SG seems to be the same. Lower jobs pay significantly less in SG than in CH and top level jobs can on the other hand pay significantly better. For those who do not get the Ferrari reference: Cars cost roughly four times the money here... so a 250k CHF Ferrari costs here a Million!

Costs: I lived in a comparatively expensive place in CH and it was not that much different from SG. People moving from Germany or the like get in fact a price shock here but if you are used to the Swiss prices you are ok. On average are flats smaller and pricier but on the other hand usually include stuff like gyms and swimming pools.

Overall is it very individual, but we save more in SG than we did in CH.

18
I have a friend who works in SG.

If you earn 120 K in CH, most probably you can get between 75 to 90K in Singapore.

Good Luck with your move to SG.

19
SG is not only for management positions. There's good demand for top notch trading systems developers, the algo and high frequency trading are picking up a lot there and HK is loosing is momentum to the better organised SG.

That's my first impression with the first contacts I'm having with the singaporean financial sector.

20
And if you feel bored in Singapore, just drive your Ferrari across the causeway to Johor Bharu. In Singapore, probably you don't have enough length of highway to test your Ferarri but I am sure you will enjoy it on the Malaysian North-South Highway (PLUS Highway), if you get ticket for speeding over 200km/h, you dont have to pay a fortune.. it is peanut compared to what you have to pay after doing 70 in 30km/hr area in Zurich... It is a good city to live, to work and to go diving, snookling etc...forget the snow and mountain! Good Luck.