sticky situation with a Geneva sublet

Accomodation, House and Garden
1
I am turning to EF to seek some advice or maybe someone can help me find the info I am looking for.

I will try to make this extremely long story as short as possible. The story goes:

I moved to Geneva earlier this year. It is my first experience having to rent a proper apartment in Switzerland. I came across an apartment and, although it is a sublet, I took it since they offered it to me and it had everything I wanted in terms of size, price, location, etc.

I don't know the rules for subletting in this canton or country, but I think the regie and the canton are supposed to be notified by law. It has become clear to me that this hasn't been done and I wasn't told that this was an illegal sublet when I took the offer and I'm not sure if this is a problem for me or not.

My sticky situation arises as such: this guy I am renting from has suddenly asked me if I want to take over his lease and become the official renter for this apartment. Sweet! Or so I thought. One catch- he wants to keep my security deposit in exchange for taking over his contract. This is equal to almost 4500 francs!!!! Unbelievable. He is very aware of the rental shortage in this city and wants to take financial advantage of it. I am so far refusing.

What I am wondering is this: is there some way I can boot him out of his apartment if he is doing an illegal sublet? What happens if I report him to the regie and the canton that he is subletting illegally and taking extra income on the side? What would happen to me living in this apartment? Or would the only thing that happens to him would be paying a fine for never reporting his sublet and then I would end up with an angry person on my back for reporting him while I still live in his space?

Does anyone have any ideas or know where I can find out these answers?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

2
Hi

I wouldn't report him because there is a risk that he could lose his contract and you could therefore get kicked out. Don't forget that you were chosen by him (and not by the régie).

My tip would be to go to the Asloca and explain your situation:

http://www.asloca.ch

They are usually good.

BTW sounds like this guy is a real @rsehole, are you sure he hasn't been overcharging on the rent too?

3
Oh, for sure he is overcharging me on rent. I was pretty sure of it when I moved in and now I know for sure since he told me what the base rent is if I were to take over the contract. Granted, my current rent includes all of my charges, internet and furnishings (albeit basic IKEA furniture), but he is still making a bit on the side.

Like I originally posted, there is a long story behind this whole rental situation and I guess I am having hopeful mini-revenge fantasies of him getting his dues while I still get to stay in the apartment But thanks for the link. I will check it out.

4
That is totally illegal, especially without authorisation. IMO the Asloca could well manage to get that back for you.

BTW If you want help from Asloca you have to become a member which will cost CHF 85.- (20.- + 65.- a year) but it should be worth it.

5
hm, ok. You mentioned before that they are "usually good", but does that mean that they'll actually do something? And are they usually speedy or will this take a long, long time to sort out and be worth my effort? Or will I have to ask them myself AFTER I join?

I am debating whether all of this is worth the effort since I have been already fighting many Swiss admin things already that are sapping my energy and whether this is another issue that will take months to sort out and have someone else to fight. I am not in Geneva forever so I might even continue paying too much on rent for the convenience of having nothing to sort out when I move.

6
Well in your first message I got the impression that you would be quite keen to transfer the lease to your name...But if it is only for a couple of months then it isn't worth it but if it is for a year or more then definetly worth fighting for IMHO.

I said they were good (and not very good) because I am not 100% certain they can do something in your situation but if they take on your case they will get it sorted out pretty quickly and you won't have to "fight" much as they will do most of it for you.

I would write them an email explaining your problem and ask if they can help if they say yes then definetly go and see them.

If you need help with translating the email into french send me a PM.

BTW Please keep us updated about your situation as this could be helpful to others.

7
The only thing to remember about ASLOCA: they represent tenants, so in theory they can also represent the guy that sublet you the flat. In this case there will be a conflict of interests and they may refuse to deal with you. But you should certainly try.

8
I suggest you start looking for a new place and take back your security deposit. Remember that you are just subletting and in this situation your are not accountable whatever happens with the flat, and yes your chances of taking over the apartment is nil.

9
Well security deposit is normally 3 times the monthly rental so 4500 CHF is not that bad.

Ours is 9000 CHF

10
Thanks everyone for your input.

For me, just picking up and finding another place isn't that easy, as most people in Geneva know. Although I have a good, stable and decent paying job, I don't make SO much where I can just move anywhere at any price. And yes, 4500 fr IS 3 months deposit for me. That's a lot of money for me. And I've got to think about how long I'm actually going to stay in Geneva (at the moment, I have no idea, could be sooner, could be later).

I do assume my chances of taking over the apartment are small, but if I have been overcharged on rent and can get that back (considering I was not informed that this was an illegal sublet and suspect that it is through various pieces of evidence), then that would be something, although that doesn't worry me so much since I've already paid it and it's gone from my budget. I guess my main goals here is to just see justice done to this guy since he is taking advantage of me financially and he will continue to do so to others even after I leave the place. He isn't even Swiss and lives in Zurich!

I think I'll contact that rental association and see what they say. If it's anything interesting, I'll post it.

11
Just to follow up on this for those wanting to know more about ASLOCA's response: I sent them an e-mail explaining the situation briefly and asking if I could possibly do anything and if it's worth my while to join ASLOCA. The only response I got was, for any sort of advice, I need to become a member (ie. pay) and then make an appointment with one of their lawyers. Great. So now I'm not sure if it will be worth it to do this or if it will just be another waste of money and time since they might not be able to do anything for me.

I'm now thinking of contacting the regie anonymously and telling them I am in an illegal sublet and the renter is overcharging me. If they don't care, I guess there's nothing more I can do but maybe they'll have something to say to me. We shall see.

12
If it was me, I would pay for the Asloca Membership and contact them.

What does it cost you ?

How much money is at risk ?

I had a dodgy employer here in Switzerland, and not knowing swiss employment laws, I decided to pay a Lawyer to get some advice. That cost me 200 chf/hour, and I consider loosing my house and my job a too high risk to be taken.

Doc.

13
I've been in a similar situation before and learned the following facts however please treat this as general knowledge - it doesn't constitute as any type of advice:

1. If he is in fact renting via a regie (which you say is the case) his contract with them will detail whether he needs to inform them or not. Most probably he does. Its usually a private clause in the contract and nothing to do with the canton.

2. He is allowed to charge you more then his current rent, especially if the apartment is furnished (even simply) and has provisions like cable / internet etc active. The amount should be reasonable and 10%-15% is acceptable by most regies.

3. The sublet period may be limited - most common is 1 year, but then again, it is regie dependent.

4. The fact he is sub-letting to you 'unofficially' according to you doesn't mean he is doing anything illegal by cantonal law, and to go 'report' him will probably not land on any listening ears. The notion of 'money on the side' may also not be applicable, as you wouldn't know anything about his financial reporting. I do understand the emotions driving you to think like that though.

5. There is no way for you to 'boot' him from the apartment, but you both may find yourselves out of housing in a short period - usually 30 days, albeit it will probably be more costly to him.

Do you know the reason why he is 'offering' you to take up the contract? The fact he is offering it to you doesn't mean he can or that you will get it! He may be making an assumption that recommending a replacement will allow him to leave without a delay notice but thats not always the case. The regie may have other plans for the apartment once he gives his notice, and there may already be a waiting list for the apartment with them.

Living here more then 10 years and Knowing the general spirit of the way things work, I'm guessing the regie will simply order him to clear the apartment within a notice period related to breach of contract, and may make it difficult for him to receive his guarantee until they are completely satisfied with the apartment state etc.

They have nothing to do with you and will probably care less of what he did. In fact, they may be happy to have him (and you) out as an opportunity to do some repairs and rent it out at a higher rent.

As others mentioned, the chances for you getting this apartment when he's gone are very unlikely, not directly anyway. I don't think that a regie will be judgmental towards you as an applicant if you would apply once the place is placed back on the market for rental but that can only happen after its empty first.

I'm thinking that if you don't plan to stay here long, just decline his offers and try to understand better his plans/motives and see if you can live through it. If you do plan to stay in Geneva, just start looking for a different place while you still have where to stay..

My 2 cents.

14
Thanks for the replies. I appreciate it.

The cost of the ASLOCA membership isn't that much, but I'm wondering if I should do it and go for an appointment when all I will hear at the end is "Sorry, you can't do anything about your situation, especially since you are a sous-locataire." That is why I'm hesistating. Don't really need to waste more time and money!

For the points you made ft4070 and reporting to the canton, I didn't know this either, but a couple of weeks back, an inspector from the cantonal office came and personally knocked on the door looking for him (I was at work) and left a card asking him to call his office. On the back of this card is a bunch of laws, one of which states that you can be fined for not reporting a sublet to the canton! It might all just be coincidence, but I was processing some paperwork for my permit here and had to submit something proving my address, signed by my current locataire, which he didn't want to do. I mentioned to the office that maybe he didn't want to since I suspected it was an illegal sublet and the regie didn't know. And then a few days later was when the inspector came knocking.

I have heard about being allowed to charge extra for furniture, etc. but even if he is charging me the extra 10-15%, I know what the base rent is that is paid to the regie since he told me what it was when he offered me the contract and what I am currently paying is above that. I guess I made an assumption about the extra money on the side and you are right, I don't know his financial reporting. But just the fact he refuses to let me have any contact with the regie and that I must do everything through him makes me suspicious and extends to my suspicions of extra money on the side.

His reason for offering me the contract is simply money. He has personally stated to me that he will only give up the contract if he gets money in return. He will make a quick bundle by "selling" me his contract rather than acting as my current landlord and slowly making a bit extra month by month.

When I told him that I might not be necessarily the person that the regie chooses when selecting a new person, he has promised me that he will not give up the contract UNLESS I get to take over the apartment. This much I believe from him. Otherwise, if someone else gets it, he won't make any money off of them. I have also read elsewhere (from a legal expert) that whoever he presents to the regie (this case being me), the regie cannot really refuse them by law unless there is a seriously compelling reason such as criminal offense or if I have poursuites on me (which I don't). Of course, whether this is true in practise, I have no idea.

I am starting to think that perhaps my only options are to stay put here and just keep the sublet or else move. And I don't want to move. So I guess that only leaves me with one option!

15
It sounds to me that the guy has an interest to remain registered in GE at his own address while not really living there. Thats a big no-no and he can get into serious trouble with the contrôle des habitants service.

Sounds like trouble to me, as even if you keep the sub-let, it will all blow up sooner or later...and if the regie will choose to move on the breach of contract case, i doubt the guy will have ANY right to 'not give up the contract unless' or provide a substitute tenant they can't refuse. I would start looking, at least as a backup plan.

16
I second every bit of advice that ft4070 gave you in this and the previous message.

If the tenant gives notice and presents candidates to take over the lease, as soon as the régie accepts the termination and informs him in writing he loses his rights as a tenant, so not only that he can not influence the process of choosing a new tenant, but he himself can not go back to the flat. And from my personal experience I can tell you that régies can, but often do not, give flats to people 'selected' by former tenants. The only person who could impose this kind of decision on them is the owner.

Listen to ft4070's advice and why not pay for ASLOCA membership -- they will, if nothing else, clarify you your rights and potential options.

17
But don't you find it very poor that they won't even say if she can do something about her situation?

I always find lawyers and doctors so mean with their knowledge it's unbelievable.

18
I don't think there's anything wrong with that. ASLOCA can't promise a success already because they'd have to invest time to get familiar with the situation of somebody who wouldn't be charged that much for their services to compensate. Also no lawyer or doctor promises always success (fraudsters aside).

ASLOCA like the Swiss German Mieterverband organisations seem to enjoy an intact reputation. Factor this in when you make a costs-benefits analysis like Doctor suggested.

19
jeansun , i suggest you secure a room in one of Geneva's foyer before making a move. If your permit is being processed then ask for your deposit nicely and get out of the apartment if you're hesitant with the ASLOCA membership. Sooner or later the proper authorities will know (based on what you said).

20
I am starting to think that maybe moving is the best solution to getting this guy off my back, as much as I don't want to move. Then maybe I can report him after I've left so that he loses the apartment! I'm quite aware that I won't necessarily get this apartment even if he recommends me to the regie, so I hold no illusions.

I doubt that ASLOCA can help me since I'm a sous-locataire and I have no rights to the apartment since I'm unofficially there. Since I too am starting to suspect that he is keeping his Geneva address while living elsewhere, I am going to take ft 4070's advice and just start looking at least and see what happens.

I'll post any more interesting and relevent developments if they happen.