That's very easily explained, because you compare apples with pears.
1. Maturité is a broad general education, as far as it is possible - in the very sense of the old and nowadays often forgotten 'educated citizen' ideal, to be educated in the broadest political sense in order to become a serious and responsible citizen, who is able to take position in any subject he/she will be asked for by political votes (and corresponding previous discussions).
Not surprisingly this is a very strong ideal in Switzerland.
2. Somebody who is able to succeed in Maturité is not necessarily good in one particular subject.
3. There is a huge difference between the philosophy of education at a gymnasium vice versa at the university. An academic study specializes, goes far deeper into the particular subject, expects often quite different abilities than a school with a broad education philosophy. You actually cannot compare it.
Quite contrary, in fact, you should expect Non-Swiss to be better at their prefered subjects, since they started their specific subject far earlier than their Swiss counterpart!
4. Gymnasium is school with pupils. University is a study by grown-ups where the students have to take over the whole responsibilities by themselves. E.g. they have to learn how much they need to prepare in order to succeed. Students have to control themselves. Who does not, will fail the first test for sure, not necessarily because they are not talented enough.
In this sense, the weed-out in a first test is much more fair (vice versa one single entry test), since it gives them one another trail where they are able to learn the characterial requirements, for the case they failed to become grown-ups before they entered the univerity!
Now look here, finally we agree
Agree on what? You claimed that the Maturite was stronger than either IB or A Levels. I claimed that it is much of a muchness.
If you look at the university requirements in Switzerland, they certainly do not go along with what you think of the maturite.
"Does anyone know how international Universities rate the Swiss Maturité?"
A couple of years back, I called Cambridge (admission office) and asked them this exact question. The answer was that they don't know well this format and thus a potential candidate might find himself at disadvantage (the latter part was rather suggested to me than ad literam).
Bottom line (at least for me) - if you intend to stay in Switzerland for university, by all means, go for a Swiss Matura (BTW - there are 4 or 5 CH universities in the top 100 according to Times magazine). But if you intend to apply to UK or US universities, IB and A-levels might be a better option for you.
Oh I agreed with your above quoted statement (which I can't find in your post any more) but if you rather disagree, then let's.
It is (I hope) a discussion not a competition. I must have misunderstood your intention. Sorry.
If I add into the equation that there are three levels to take into account:
- curriculum
- teaching
- grading
and that each of them are different in terms of harshness, you'll all loose your mind before the end of day.
Enjoy.
We address gymmase students as students. They are not pupils and get nice "vous" from us. They are supposed to get versed in managing their studies, planning and monitoring already in gymnase, in order to make it through the uni filter exams, or the 1st filter year. The fact quality of gymnase programs, schools and individual teachers quite varies, first year of uni is practically a homogenizing year for students that come from different gymnase schools with varying degree of respect to what they are supposed to push students for. So, it's not only how applied the individual students are, but how individually different some high schools, teachers and contents in subjects are. It's antidiscriminatory and very expensive, to filter students later.
eta - Faltrad was faster. I got sidetracked by the storm watching.
Second google search result to the question "does Cambridge accept the Swiss matura"
http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergrad...itzerland.html
So it seems to be not such a mysterious qualification after all.
Given that usual entrance requirements for those taking A level is 3 or 4 A grades, it seems the matura requirements compare well.
I am not entirely sure whether Swiss Maturité is superior to IB Diploma program or the other way around but rather the choice could be based on student's preferences. Swiss Maturité is a generalist diploma, which gives a solid background in a broad range of subjects (11 altogether?). IB program gives you much more freedom in your education because students can choose which subjects they want to specialize in and at what level (HL or SL). Having done IB, I was truly happy with the program and enjoyed it a lot. Our high school works with students so that they can take 7 subjects or multiple higher level subjects. Having studied 7 subjects, I didn't feel it was too limiting but if someone wants to have a very good background in 11, they can do Maturité.
Overall, I think freedom and responsibility to choose to study what you want can be quite valuable.
I heard that because of a demand from a relatively large foreign population in Genéve/Lausanne area it is possible to enroll in dual Maturité/IB program. While I am not sure how much (or little) extra work would this require, at least this may be an option too
"So it seems to be not such a mysterious qualification after all."
I was merely trying to offer constructive advice to the OP.
Cambridge is accepting applications with far more "exotic" flavour than Swiss Matura. The question is how successful these applications are...Well, from the link provided, I would say roughly 13% for Swiss applicants (BTW-it doesn't say if all Swiss applicants have a Swiss Mature or perhaps other degrees, such as IB for instance).
Actually, I think the Flemish education system is the best in the world.
No only joking, just want to say that every country thinks that their own education system is the best. And the Swiss are even more patriotic than most other countries I know.
Sure, the maturité is such high level and very demanding etc etc but just to give an example: during the 6 years I have been here I have consistently struggled to find people for our office (in Geneva) who are able to speak more than a few words of German. And these are always people who went through many years of German and who succesfully obtained their maturité.
How can you live in France and write that about education? I don't get it.
the swiss maturité is recognised like the other maturas in continental europe but you have to convert it at the embassy or the consulate.
Take note that the professional matura (like the ones from technical or commercial secondary schools, or the one you get if you do one more year after the apprenticeship) does not have the same value and does not grant entry into university, only in some cases.
Yes.
After the first year, if it's a difficult subject like engineering, the weaker students who don't pass the exams will often leave and go study economics or something.
Or 15 around here, but 14 is possible.
Tom
Of course you do. To say, a gymnasium is a school with pupils, but university an institution with adults, is of course an oversimplification. I thought this was obvious. But the message stays the same. (BTW: who is "we"??)
BTW: Students in upper secondary education level are pupils even more so in GB, since they generally finish the secondary education level already with 18, but the Swiss ones with 20 (in general).
Which also explains, to some extend, why they can study 11 subjects (instead of "only" 4(+3)), since they have two full years more available to do so!
So my main message still stays the same: The real goal by the Swiss Maturity is to educate grown-up citizen, literate in more than just one (or two) particular subject. The German equivalent would be the so called "Gebildete Bürgertum".
Some other figures (by OECD)
Freshmen for tertiary-type-A education (university):
USA: 72%
GB: 64%
CH: 44%
of these with successful university grades:
USA: 57%
GB: 81%
CH: 72%
Part of the population with university grades:
USA: 39%
GB: 54%
CH: 32%
If you assume that all nations people have the same intelligence/ability distribution, you can conclude that the tertiary-type-A (and upper secondary -> Gymnasium/high school) programmes in Switzerland are the most challenging ones, in GB you find the easiest path to successfully finish a study.
The reality of a chance at gaining the necessary interview to be considered for Cambridge acceptance is closer to 3 or 4 A* grades. A bigger deciding factor after they glance at the grades of A-lecels or any other final qualification IS the interview.
Actually in the usual run of things, the interview and offer take place before the exams have been taken. The obtaining of the required grades is therefore the determining factor. At least this is the order of things that my niece and her friends are doing it in.
It's the same here. The only ones who are older than 15 at the end of obligatory schooling are the ones who have repeated a year.
Yes that's how it normally works. The key these days seems to be selling yourself in the application process in the personal statement. This and the projected exam results seems to be the basis on which the universities decide on.
For some universities and courses it's possible to get a conditional offer without an interview but for sought after courses and universities there will be the interview stage and actually getting an interview in the first place is pretty hard.
The 'Belgian system' is quite similar to the Swiss maturitė and it is possible to get into a UK university but the entry requirements are pretty tough. They required a minimum of 80% across the 11 subjects and 90% in some if the key areas plus a GCSE qualification in English. We have several friends who have been though or are going through this process with their children and it can be a pretty stressful time. It's much harder to get an interview when applying from outside the UK.
I don't have any experience if the process from Switzerland yet but my feeling is that it would be fairly similar.
Wow, I'm learning a lot from this thread, I never knew it was this complicated around the world. (North American ignorance :P )
Personally, I just kept on going to school as it became available, never too many decisions or cut offs.
I did do a semester in the 2nd sek. here in CH, and I did have to admit they were a couple years ahead of my program in Canada. The dicipline, formality was definitely worlds away, I don't think I would have even survived in the Sek. program if I was there---mostly due to my love of class-clowning.
If I do have kids, I'm not sure I would want them in the Swiss system, but the internation system sounds fairly similar now. Maybe I could ship them off to Canada for school :P. Do note, that is a big IF.