I am new to this forum and to Switzerland. We lived in London for almost a decade and recently moved to Zurich due to job. We have a choice wether to stay here or go back to London, but it largely depends on the education. We have two children: 2 and 4 and need to decide quickly waht to do. It is a difficult decision and I would like to hear views of people who have worked in both education systems or whose children studied both in UK and in Switzerland.
I hear more and more that here in Switzerland children have an easy life until the age of 11-12. They do not have any formal tuition until the age of 7, they only learn alphabet by the age of 8 and have very little homework. On the other hand in UK children start to read and write at 5. So for a child who goes to Swiss school and then moves to UK school before the age of 12, this may be a big schock.
On the other hand, apparently state schools are all very good in Switzerland, whilst the reputation of state schools in London is not that good.
In central London, for example, the choice is either private and expensive or community, where children of all backgrounds come. Church funded state schools are oversubscribed and we are not members of either roman-catholic or anglican churches. There are good schools outside London, but we like where we are in London and would prefer not to move out because of school.
I do not know whether the end result of the education in UK and Switzerland would be the same or different: I've read that despite an early start in UK, children in continental Europe do better in the end, because their social sckills are developed at first place.
Are there league tables here?
I would be grateful for your thoughts or links to useful info.
I'm just about to come to Switzerland and teach (although it's at an international school). I really wouldn't worry about the age of learning the alphabet etc. How many pupils in England can actually speak more than one language by 16? International schools are available but quite expensive. Will look forward to reading this thread as I'm quite interested too.
Swiss system gets my vote - we moved our 10 year old twins over from the UK and dumped them in the state schools where they struggled for 6 months while they learned German - now they are 14 and doing really well.
No league tables as such - no SATS in the form usual in the UK - LOTS of homework (don't know where you got the idea they didn't get much) - very high standards, dedicated teachers who just teach. If I had to sum it up in one go I'd say the Swiss system is about education and producing a complete person while the UK system was about ticking boxes.
My neighbour's (Swiss) son just started kindergarten here (age 5). He knows his letters and numbers etc. Heck - my two year old can count to ten and knows a few of her letters and we haven't even tried to teach her. So although reading and writing may not be the early emphasis, I think the kids are not lacking as much knowledge as it might seem to us, looking in from the outside as newcomers to this system.
In my opinion (my husband is Swiss) one can come out of the Swiss school system with an outstanding education. Hands down I believe my husband got a better education, and more of his general knowledge has stuck with him, than I did in the US (and I was in a state considered to be among the top in the country for quality of education). I also feel from meeting his friends that they too have gotten very good educations. But there is no question that in the early years the Swiss and UK (we lived there for a while before moving here) have a different approach in the early years. But my impression is also that the UK kids finish out their education much younger as well.
We are taking the approach that once our child starts school (barring any unforeseen life changes), we plan to try to stick with that school system for the duration, if at all possible.
I think one thing you may want to ask yourself, in addition to weighing up quality of education for the kids, is how do *you* feel about being here for the next 15+ years? I got an email once from a parent of a family of expats, whose kids have grown up here and done all their education in Switzerland. We were discussing the "Third Culture Kids" phenomenon. The parents are not really happy here, despite having lived here for years. They are considering re-patting when their kids finish their higher education, but they are in the position of having children that identify more culturally with the Swiss than with their "home" culture (the one of the country of their passport).
This family faces difficult choices in the next few years and it weighs on their minds a great deal as they know they will quite likely end up living in a different country (not in easy "commute" distance) from their adult children. So while quality of education is a factor for the kids, I think another component of this question (that is equally important) is to look down the road and think of your own preferences. How do you feel about your kids identifying more culturally with Switzerland than your "home"? If you think the kids will get a comparable education in the UK, and that is something that bothers you, or you can't (to the best of your ability) see yourself here *happily* 5,7,10 years from now, then I think those factors weigh significantly into the decision as well. I think you are wise to think about this now.
Some schools in Zurich are introducing a new primary school level. This level includes the now compulsory kindergarten classes 1 and 2 and the first primary school level.
In our local school the 3 years are merged into one class (21 children), taught by two teachers. The German term is "Mehrjahrgangsklassen" and this system is popping up everywhere, where (sadly ) there are less children to fill the existing schools.
They cover the 3 years flexibly, which is a great thing and a vast improvement on conventional Swiss schooling - i.e. younger children who already know alphabet/numbers are now able to join in with the older children. The older ones get to repeat as well as learning new material. And the social competence that the kids learn at the same time is amazing.
One of our sons has just started this school at 5 years old - and he's very proud of it
I am happy to see positive comments on the Swiss schooling system, because so far the feedback I received from people was not great. One English couple (a lawyer and a marketing professional) who lived here for 20 years and raised their children here (I like living here) felt that their children do not get all-rounded education, as Swiss system apparently does not encourage logical thinking, but only "ticking the boxes", so they moved them from state school to the international one at the age of 12 and plan to send them to universities in UK. Another German man whose wife is Swiss sent their child to bilingual kindergarten and plans bilingual education further because he feels the same way as the English couple above.
We come from Russia (former USSR) and many Russians here in Zurich say that the programme back in Russia is much more advanced (even though children also go to school at 7). Pupils who received fair marks over there become the stars of the class here. Our daughter is 4 and she know English alphabet from the age of 2 and she now reads in Russian (I taught her both). She does not speak German and goes to bilingual kindergarten at the moment. The idea is to move her to state kindergarten and school at a later stage when she learns a bit of language (if we decide to stay here). But my concern if she learns more and is more advanced at that stage than there are two risks: it may be boring for her in the school, or she will have to wait for other kids to catch up and will lose time. Or maybe I worry too much.
A very useful comment is to think years ahead whether we feel good living here. It's not easy as we only spent 7 months here so have our first opinions and impressions, but this is maybe not long enough to make a judgement. New language, new friends, new customs etc. There are pluses and minuses, as always. We have no plans to return to Russia at this stage, so for us it’s either London or Zurich for the foreseeable future.
On the other hand, books and newspapers all say that the quality of education her is high, so for us being the outsiders, it's really a difficult task to make a comparison.
Anyway, would be interested to read more of your comments and thoughts.
Just interested to know if your twins are at Gymnasium Swissbob? Most teenagers who don't go to Gymi will start their apprenticeship at the age of 15/16. Kids here get a longer childhood at the beginning but then it ends very quickly when at the age of 13 they are supposed to decide on their career. I think the Swiss system is ok but see the advantages of living here in other areas rather than education.
I've found on this Forum that students finish universities here at the age of 25. Is this true? I've thought they go to university at the age of 18 for 5 years...
That's about the age my husband's friends were when they finished. Maybe a bit younger - it was a big joke for us (we were living in the US) because my husband was through with school, married, and had a mortgage when his friends were finishing school and moving into their first flats.
edited to add: when I say joke, in a good-natured kind of way. We were not judgmental of them. Just found their experiences at that age to reflect some of the differences in the cultures of the two countries.
Keep them in Switzerland until they are about 10 years old. From the age of 3-5 you could homeschool in English or send them to a Montessori school.
from 5-6 keep them in the Swiss Kindergarten and continue to homeschool in English- you can get materials on line. The advantage is that Swiss schools instill a skills of self-discipline, independence, responsibility and socialization. The Swiss also fully address special needs, children are fully evaluated,socially, emotionally, pysically and academically and problems and support is provided without delay. From the age 6 if they know how to read and write and are mature enugh they skip a year and go to school with 7 year olds. from 7-9 the kids really get drilled in the basics. They also get a great start in languages. Around the age of 9-10 I would switch them back to the UK schools for the curriculum diversity, that is assuming that you are moving the kids back to a school with a limited number of behavioural problems.
It also depends on whether the kids are heading to SEK or GYmi in CH. Generally in Sek two teachers cover the whole curriculum wearing different hats. In British secondary schools the teachers ideally stick to one subject, s they should know it in depth. the kids start studying for GCSE-O's when they are 14, they take them at 16, then start studying for GCSE A's at 16 and take them at 17/18. So they attend Uni at 18. Swiss kids generally take longer and attend Uni later.
My kids switched from the UK (ages 3-7) to Swiss ages (5-16) to the US high school system. Our US high school does not employ teachers that do not have a masters and at least Bachelors in the subject they teach. Sek teachers go to teacher training college. UK and US schools also invest heavily in arts, science labs, sports facilities etc. Most of the Swiss allowance goes toward teachers pay.
My expereince was that there is a lot more opportunity for high school kids in the UK and US, but in primary/elemenatry school the Swiss system provided structure, solid grounding in fundamentals and self-discipline.
Most of them do. Some of them take a sabbatical and start at 19. Feet-dragging throughout university wasn't exactly an isolated occurence either... not that i would know anything about that
Wow - very detailed post. Sounds like your kids have had a very diverse background. However when I read this I see a lot of generalizations. I belong to a forum on Swiss schooling. There are several parents there with special needs kids who I think would challenge your assessment that the Swiss schools fully address special needs situations. From what they have said, it varies tremendously between schools how special needs are addressed. Further, some parents have expressed that when they disagreed with the comprehensive assessments that you describe, trying to appeal or be a participant in the development of a plan of action for their child was like beating their heads against a brick wall.
As for generalizing about US schools and funding for arts etc., across the country in many, many, many schools extra curricular activities such as arts and music are in crisis and even in danger of being eliminated completely. The property tax system for funding school districts (which is the most common model in the US) is fraught with inequity inherent to it's very principles and I feel it's virtually impossible to truthfully generalize about anything in regards to US schools, since it varies even from one school to another across a town, much less from state to state around the country.
I feel compelled to share some of the other experiences I noted above to make the point that the experience one and one's children will have, in any country, can vary dramatically from school to school, town to town, kanton to kanton/county to county, state to state, etc. etc. and I feel it's important to remember that one person's personal experience doesn't mean that someone else's will be the same, even if in the same country.
Mmm, I don't know, do you really want me to state my qaulifications?
I have taught in schools in England, Switzerland and the US. I have advised in the UK. Also taught in international schools in CH.... and private instituitons and colleges. But that's all old stuff now.
My husband has lectured at universities in all three countries. He still interviews/selects from all the top universities worldwide.
Honestly though the best experience is having your kids go through the systems to find the hidden curriculum.
I assume that most people who are on this forum do not have to choose between ghetto schools. Ghetto schools may not even have proper toilet facilities or basic books. That has been well publicized. As far as funding for the arts in the US or UK is concerned tell me what proportion of CH funds are allocated to the arts in schools. Ever seen a theatre with props, school archestra or properly equipped arts room in Switzerland? CH schools do not have an open-door policy when it comes to parents. Do I agree with that? No! However CH kids will be assessed by experts, kids in the UK or US can wait for months even years to get their kids assessed. I prefer an expert opinion to a value-judgement made by a teacher. When it comes to kid the real experts should be the parents; especially if they are well- versed in education.
Wow - not often I am left speechless, (or very nearly ). Your posts speak volumes about your mentality and it's obvious that your opinions are deeply held, and there is no room in your world for other points of view.
To the original poster lana - I wish you the best as you gather the information and background you are looking for to make the decision that suits you and your family best. It's never easy and in the end we all just make the best choices we can, given what we know at the time.
Our local school arranged a workshop with the orchestra of the Tonhalle Zurich (yes, professional musicians). The children were allowed to try out instruments and after 3 days put on a "show" in the Tonhalle for families and general public. Free of charge.
Our local school has an organised parent's association. 2 parents per class are nominated to represent the other parents and children in all matters concerning the school. We are not just asked to join in in organising school parties. We help in school projects and give opinions on administrative matters too.
When I think of all the other cultural offers in the city of Zurich, which are offered to school children at a fraction of the price of private lessons, I do wonder where your "experience" is coming from.
Of course, it may be the only school in Zurich or even in Switzerland that operates like this - but I doubt it.
Great- maybe things have changed, so you have legally protected/represented PTA or PTO ( a group- not just one or two elected people), a theatre or auditorium where school plays or concerts are regularly held, a rota for parents to be in the classroom on a regular basis if they wish, educational policy statements covering the rights of pupils strict codes of cinduct concerning sexism, racism etc. fingerprinting and background checks for all teachers. I'm glad that things have changed.