Currently based in Ireland but chances are I may get offered jobs in Switzerland and Luxembourg. Obviously, I can't take both so have to choose Money (gross) in Switzerland (Zurich) would be probably 30% more than in Luxembourg but there are things money can't buy
I was twice in both countries and liked them, though found them quite different in many aspects.
Any suggestions? Anyone lived in Luxembourg before moving to Switzerland (or vice versa)?
I've worked in both countries and still in Switzerland at the moment but looking to move back to Lux as so fed up with being strangled with red tape here amongst a bunch of other things.
From my and quite a few of my friends experience bullying is very common in the work place and we are talking about Financial services here top banks, insurance companies. Its extremly easy to loose your job for no reason at all that is if you are of 'different nationality'.
If you want a good job and friendly easy going expat environment go to Lux! If you want a constant headache in work and general living then Switz is your place.
I've come to the conclusion Switz is great for holidays but not to live and work and its not the chocolate box perfect place we all imagine it to be....far from it!
On the other hand for me the most negative thing about Lux is it takes a bit longer to get to the ski slopes.
As for salary don't be fooled by the low tax here as by the time you have paid all extra insurances etc and other cost of living expenses it mounts up.
Good luck where ever you choose.
Like Cosmicgirl, I have heard of a few instances of bullying in the workplace in Switzerland. That, coupled with the rather uptight lifestyle of the Swiss and the extremely high cost of living, I would suggest that Luxembourg would be a better fit for you.
I certainly felt more at home in Luxembourg, having lived for many years in London. I personally feel that the Swiss lack a certain joie de vivre, which I think you can find living in Luxembourg.
Never lived in Luxembourg but have lived in Holland (no idea if there are many similarities though) and much prefer it in Switzerland. It's expensive and plenty of red tape but at the same time everything just seems to work. Where I live there ain't much crime and have never gotten hassled (never happened in Dublin either though), not to mention it's spectacularly beautiful.
I guess Zurich would be more like Dublin than this city so maybe best to listen to others who live and work there
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents though, all the best whatever you decide.
EDIT: just for Nicolaschulz, Dun Laoghaire is 20 minutes from Dublin city centre and not, as I suspect you believe, somewhere in the middle of nowhere
Also, you are living in the French quarter, which is really quite different to living in or around Zurich, I feel
Yes, I love Dun Laoghaire. But the overall state of the country isn't promising much good... And bullying happens here, too. I guess it can happen everywhere so I'm actually surprised you both highlighted it as a problem in Switzerland. I thought it's more tolerant and/or civilized.
In Zurich it's a job in a bank via a consultancy. I guess it's almost impossible to get hired by any bank over there directly due to numerous SLAs. As both the bank and the consultancy are huge companies, there is and there willl be not much personal between us. I just seem to tick all the boxes (and don't ask the Swiss rates!) so they look like ready to make an offer though they don't really communicate it well. I know firsthand that communication is an issue in big corporations so it doesn't really bother me much.
On the other hand, the Luxembourgish manager does appear genuinely interested in me. In Luxembourg it's not the capital but Esch, not sure if it makes difference. I visited only Luxembourg City so I have no idea how exactly Esch might be different. The guy is giving an exact salary figure which is probably OK for Luxembourg.
The Swiss figure isn't confirmed yet but what I said would be my minimum is 30-40% more than the Luxembourgish one based on today's exchange rate EUR = 1.3 CHF. The difference appears significant but I don't really know about the real price of life which, according to what you're saying here, is much higher in Switzerland. I did notice yours is an expensive country but Luxembourg isn't exaclty a cheap place either
I think social protection is much better in Luxembourg and sponsored mainly by the government only. Your taxes get deducted at source and cover your health, unemployment and retirement without any additional contribution from you.
In Switzerland, you are also protected by the state to some extend but you are also required to top it up on a regular basis. I understand that other expenses/stealth taxes are also going to heavily and unconditionally drain your budget. But would it all be as much as 30% difference in gross salaries? Yes, I know money isn't the most important, still, you're generally required to pay for more important things
Based on what I know so far, my feeling is that Luxembourg is more suitable for, well, retirement but for active and skilled professionals Switzerland gives more opportunities. I won't flatter myself by saying I'm young but I do hope my retiremment is still a decade or two away. Funny enough, Switzerland is the only country in Europe where asking about the age isn't a taboo. I think the EU regulations forbid it while 90% of my work contacts with Swiss companies ended with this question
So I guess I'm still nowhere near the answer...
In addition, the cost of eating out in Swizterland is incredibly high - it is a few years since I was in Luxembourg but I don't remember being shocked by the prices when I was there.
As you have pointed out though, there may be more opportunity for professional growth in Switzerland ... tough call and I wish you all be best, wherever you choose to live.
It's good to remember sometimes that every CHF or € can only be spent once ;-)
Yes, eating out is expensive.
But maybe cooking at home and inviting a few friends is not a bad option either. If you let them bring the wine, you're almost break-even already ;-)
I've never been to Luxembourg, though.
Maybe everything is much better there.
All I would like to add is that once you have gathered enough information from the EF and any other sources you may be utilizing in order to assist your decision making process, just take a step back, stop stressing (that is, if you are ) and try your hardest to forget about it. The right answer will eventually come ...
All the best to you with whichever one that ends up being.
There is a link below for comparing salaries . Hope it helps but remember that the CHF is extremley strong and EUR weak at the moment so be carefull when comparing as wages can appear distorted.
http://www.robertwalters.com/en-gb/e...lary-survey.do
In my opinion you are not protected by the state here as everything comes down to insurance and the traffice police! I sometimes feel that it is lawless society here as a non native I don't feel safe. The individual doesn't seem to have any rights ( this is the red tape problem I find here). My sister has been summounded to the Police station twice how crazy is that! We call this 'bandit country' from our own experiences over the last few years. This is why we are leaving we do not trust this society and how things are handled here, we feel very vunerable. Its pretty sad but thats the experiences we have had.
As for communication in big companies the would 'communication' Doesn't exist here in any walk of life! I think again this is one of the biggest problems for a non native especially coming from our neck of the woods.
Sorry to show a neagtive side to this place , but thats just how its unfortunatley been.
Luxembourg: Even smaller and richer country with an even funnier language and efficient tax system.
I'd not have any issue to live in either of them - two good laces to spend some time. There are major cultural differences and they are in the end a matter of personal taste. I'd pick the job that sounds more interesting.
I very much recommend Switzerland over Luxembourg. No offense to any of the other replies, but I believe they answered purely on unlucky personal experience. It is not common Swiss practice to be bullied at work...while it can certainly happen here, it can happen anywhere. Same with bureaucratic problems...people can run into unlucky situations anywhere, but on a whole if you do everything right (esp. as far as paperwork) you are protected here.
Luxembourg is beautiful, but as such in the way a beautiful painting is beautiful. You can't touch it, you can't experience it. The country is too small to have a significant culture and it's easy to feel lost and in unfamiliar territory. Luxembourg City feels like a soulless Paris...with it's similar beautiful buildings & parks but without the wonderfully unique Parisian personality.
Luxembourg is a wealthy country like Switzerland. Luxembourg is expensive, the only slightly cheaper items would be in meat grocery prices...otherwise real estate, restaurants & everything else is the same. The restaurants are honestly not very good in Luxembourg, while the Swiss pay very close high quality attention to their food.
On the positive side, Luxembourg is very safe and clean like Switzerland. The economy is strong in Luxembourg as in Switzerland. (Two of the safest economies in the world right now!)
I would much rather live in Switzerland because you have four unique cultures in a tiny place....you have the mountains, lakes and beauty for miles to see. The weather is nice, while it rains constantly in Lux. While you do have to pay for health insurance here, the health care is fantastic and you do see your tax money at work. Unemployment insurance here is very reassuring as well.
Additionally, travel to other destinations in Europe is very easy from Switzerland.
Best of luck in your decision, if you want a land of more variety in land and culture I recommend Switzerland!
Please don't get me wrong when i first come to Switzerland i thought it was heaven on earth , really i did! I was very happy to be here and overlooked returning to Luxembourg in favour of here.
A simple crossing of a road caused a problem . Police , insurance etc , etc, red tape still continuing 2 years on for a member of my family and although the healthcare on paper looks fantastic in my experience it was appauling.
I don't think its unlucky its just the way things go when you get tangled up in everyday life insurances and strangley authourities. People from the UK are not used to all this nor are some other Europeans.
Thats just the way things run here unfortunatley. I think really for me the points I can put this down to is a mentality and a form of discrimination in the treatment of other nationalities.
As for bullying in the work place this happened to four people (2 men 2 women) I know including myself, again top tier banks and insurance companies, which resulting in all losing their jobs. It then becomes an impossibility to get another job, 2 of these people left and now myself and the other person will leave. Never happened in London to me in 20 years. I just believe its a national sport as it strangley almost feels indorced.
I will miss the beauty of the country but not the headaches it causes.
Well, for me it doesn't even look fantastic on paper.
Swiss people will confirm this.
But the truth is: "fantastic healthcare" does not exist.
If it exists somewhere, it's subsidized by the state or is just running up deficits like in Germany.
Take for example all the dentist work that is not paid in Switzerland.
The point is: everybody will get problems with his teeth at some point. But if you know this, then an "insurance" is not the right instrument.
Do you think car-insurances could "work" if everybody had accidents regularly?
Health-care is damn expensive. The sooner people learn that it' s not "free", the better.
That said, the Swiss system is not perfect: too many health-insurance companies selling basically the same thing.
But it's reasonably close. At least, it makes much more sense than the system in Germany, that tries to have some sort of socialism (everybody pays as much as he can and gets as much health-care as he needs) that everybody knows is not going to work long-time. But as too many people profit somehow from the status quo and it looks good on paper, nothing ever changes fundamentally.
As a side-note, Baghdad scores 14.7, so Zurich (108) has a long way to go before somebody can complain IMO ;-)
Of couse, you aren't invited to the neighbors house in the 1st week.
Swiss just aren't like that.
Also, I don't see any red tape at all.
What problem do you have specifically?
I consider Switzerland's administration to be quite lean and efficient.
After all, the federal government created a net positive budget of 3 bln CHF last year. I don't think one could do that with a lot of red tape.
Because you usually are.
Unless you join local clubs etc.
Yeah, but I earn a bit more here.
Sure, I don't own a 300sqm flat in the Mobimo Tower.
Things are only expensive here, if you buy a lot of stuff. ;-)
If your life revolves around shopping, then clearly this is no place for you.
you're in for a surprise!
I've stopped on the way to my parents in Luxembourg many times but djeez the language there..its like the French and Germans had a one night stand and ended up with a mix of both while drunk..
Hardly a word i understand there..