The next one gets a clip round the ear [old busy-bodies]

Try this book / author. My friends says it works wonders.

http://www.amazon.com/Happiest-Baby-.../dp/0553381466

I've seen plenty of toddlers playing up and throwing tantrums and usually the parents disown the kid until it calms down. I very rarely see locals telling their kids off for bad behaviour, it's much easier to ignore it and hope it goes away.

My impression is that the kids here are very badly behaved and have no manners. Their parents seem to ignore any transgression unless they are directly impacted and don't feel any responsibility if others are.

I don't tend to get the "helpful" advice from strangers, and I have a suspicion that Mrs Boris gets it because she's, well, a woman. But one thing that does get to me is the number of people that think it is perfectly ok to give sweets to my kid without first asking me if it is ok to do so.

An elderly man used his umbrella like a big stick and placed it on my two and a half year old's legs on the train platform at Uster once. I guess he thought she was going to jump on to the tracks, although the fact that she was quietly munching a biscuit and standing next to mummy who was holding her hand, and was also standing quite far back from the edge should have put his mind at rest.

I also had one woman tell me it was very dangerous to not put a hat on her. Trouble is I'm not one she should have been telling. She obviously has never tried to tell a toddler what to do...

On the flipside, lots of people have been very helpful and friendly, and I must add that I also encountered the busybody kind of behaviour in England, too.

I've not seen any kids having tantrums in Migros / Coop apart from mine (how do you get 1.5 & 3 year old round the supermarket withough a trantrum???) - mind you I don't really see many kids there - where do they put them - or do they just leave them at home while they pop out? This makes me feel like such a bad mother - all the dirty looks you get

I have seen some local kids behaving badly at the parks and the mothers do leave them to it - I have had to intervene to stop some bullying (of my kids) - just telling them to stop its not nice to bully younger kids etc - still the mothers don't do anything... this makes me feel like I'm such a great mother (being proactive - not allowing bulling etc)

I have seen plenty of instances where the parents (Swiss and foreign) let their kids go loco! In coop there were these two 5-6 year old mutts going bonkers. Shouting, fighting, throwing stuff and mum not once told them to shut it! Even got kicked by one of the little rascals If it was my kid I would have given them the verbal smack down

I will comment on the Swiss kids. I have never seen such rotten out of control kids in my life as I do here.

This thread seems to be going the way of the "Dogs on Leash" thread from a few days ago: with some people showing a remarkable lack of tolerance to children. Should they be muzzled too ? The thread was intended to be an admonishment of busy-bodies interfering...

dave

Swiss children do appear to be well behaved until you get a pack of them. I think they are OK on their own, but in a peer group of two or more the poo hits the fan. IIMHO that they are bullies. Our girl is very slightly built but strong, she was quite happily playing on the swings in the play area at our flats when two children came along, one shouted 'halt' at her. She had no idea what was going on so carried on swinging. HALT! again came and she carried on. This little toe rag grabbed the chain of the swing and stopped her . She fell off and started grizzling, he got on and he and his friend had a swing high competition. I had been sitting some way away having a cig and watching what would happen. I was furious. Strangely enough the same little boy had been playing quite happily in the sand pit with her the day before so he knew she didn't speak German. The mother of hulk boy was walking up the hill and did not remonstrate with her son.

I did and she got very defensive and said it was his turn . I told her we'd only been there for 3 minutes. She doesn't speak to me any more

Funnily enough...

We get a lot of looks as we often put Mk. 1 on reins. Mostly very amused, sometimes scowls.

re J-T's post - only one of the incidents happened in Scumpliz, the rest in the city. There's been quite a few more things happened previously, like the old sod who shouted at Mrs Boris and kicked the pushchair because Mrs Boris was trying to get round them on the pavement after they stopped walking, etc.

Busybody behaviour is one thing, it's the readiness to grab at the kids that I don't like.

As for behaviour, Mk. 1's usually pretty good unless she's teething (as she is at the moment), when she can get a bit loud and short-tempered. We do what we can to keep her happy and quiet on buses and trains and there's really very little we can do about the new one as she's only a month old and if she cries then she cries.

Luckily, Mrs Boris doesn't go beserk at people (she's only lost it once at someone in the six years we've known each other - I wish I'd seen it...), but I certainly wouldn't blame her if she did.

Oh God, we've just bought reins. I'll look out for the pointed looks (mental note to self: don't tie him to the railings outside the pub while we nip in for a swift half...)

Mainly we got them because the little fella has taken a fancy to the lake and given half a chance would dive right in, even when it's freezing cold so we need something to keep him back, although it's a bit like he decides the route and we just follow...

I believe that's the effect of feeding them Kirschstengeli or soaking the pacifiers in vodka over night.

Don't forget the golden rule of being parent is that if your child is crying/throwing a tantrum/hitting another child/throwing food around and so on that all other children in the vicinity will be little angels. This is a global phenomenon, not just particular to Switzerland. Come to think of it, I've seen it happen with my own child in Australia, England, Switzerland, Sweden, Italy, Spain.....

Err.. you don't have kids, do you? I have a 1 year old which is magically snotty and mucky within ten minutes of being washed and dressed. You can ask a 1 year old as often and as reasonably as you like to "please be quiet on a tram" but if he's hungry, tired and just been clonked on the head by some idiot's Freitag bag you've got no chance.

They are babies - it's their job...

I didn't mean behaviour wise as I have seen plenty of bad behaviour in our local park specially in summers aka grabbing swings, teasing, throwing sand into other kids eyes etc. to say the least.

But then infants don't have much of behavioural problems, they just cry and fuss when they want to and one can't scold them. I just want to know the secret behind the extra quite kids in prams (less then a year old kinds). Knowing the intolerance of noise levels here I am dreading the day I will get a notice from my concierge for my colicky baby. Also I have no choice but to trundle her around everywhere with me and she is kicking a fuss most times, sometimes she is a real angel though .

(Example is two other women come with prams and infants to the same bus stop where I go to pick up my older daughter and my baby is the only one who is screaming or crying at times . I have never heard a peep out of the other two kids till date. Where am I going wrong???)

I have 2 kids, thanks for asking. Lukas is 4.5 and Laura is 2.5 years old. By no means are they perfect little angels, but my wife and I try to keep their clothes and noses clean and their voices at an acceptable level in public. Notice, trying doesn't mean that we always succeed. I do see however many Swiss that are not even trying.

I find it strange how older people, especially middle aged women, always tell you how to improve your childbearing skills (vivdly remember being told off for letting my child dehydrate in the summer!, strangely enough child survived the summer without further damage) and how younger women, e.g. my Swiss neighbour go to the other extreme of more or less just ignoring their kids. I'm still upset about the way the neighbours' 4 year old broke our new Magna Doodle completely on purpose, after I had already asked him several times, less and less politely, NOT to bang the pen down on the screen. He then didn't care much about me telling him off and threatening to tell his mummy when she came back. Did it, mummy turns around, smiles at her little sunshine, says "oh, what have you done, chouchou?" (that really gets me ) and end of story. No apology offered from the mother, when I would have been ashamed at my kid's behaviour, and certainly no offer to replace the just acquired christmas present. Which watershed event in their life makes them change from indifferent parents to meddling busybodies?

Seeing their kids grow up and becoming investment bankers and wondering 'what did I do wrong?'

Most parents think that their little mutt could do no wrong

A baby crying is fully understandable in public as that is what babies do. A 5-6 year old kid kicking strangers, throwing stuff off the supermarket shelf, blocking the way by swimming on the floor with his brother while fighting is also border line acceptable as they are kids. What is unacceptable to me is when mother makes NO attempt to solve the problem.

No Dave the kid should not be muzzled it's the irresponsible parents that I want to muzzle. Better still I would like to castrate such parents. Did anyone watch the reportage on TV about a lady that had 5 kids from 5 different men? Bless her as she could not keep her legs closed . If I remember correctly then she was only 23!

I do have a tad of a problem when everything is being generalised a-bloody-gain I think we Swiss are not better or worse than any other nation on the whole wide world! We have our set of values that we try to give to our offspring, BUT I think with what I see around me is the problem is GENERATIONAL and not cultural !

I am in my early forties and have a few friends in their mid twenties who've got children and the differencies of how mine and their kids are/were raised couldn't be bigger.

So I'd rather be constructive here than generalising and put down what i successfully did with my own offspring and my daycare boy!

re:child being touched by strangers

- touching someones child is a strict no-no to anyone whatever their age.

It may sound crass but when my eldest was in her pram older people just touched her and stroked her face, so I touched them too,obviously they did were startled if not shocked and I simply said, see you don't like that either and i don't want you touching my child!

What also helped was saying very loud : 'Was söu das?' or ' Was machet dir da?' ( what are you doing?) because this will have a few heads turning, most people will get very embarassed and leave you be.

For busybodies who berate you on your childs not wearing a hat,open parka etc, you simply say :' Das geit öich nüt aa' ( this is of no regard to you )

re: how to shop with toddlers

First and foremost plan enough time for shopping, especially with a toddler or two in tow.....I found that my bratz were more unruly when they sensed that i was in a hurry,but almost never acted up when we had enough time ..

When shopping I always had the baby on me in a Snuggly/Tragetuech,this ensured I had both hands free,one of the toddler and one for putting stuff in the caddy.

By the time the younger ones were about two and four years old they both had mini caddies ( our migros didn' thave them then) I made them 'writing' a shopping list and they carried their own small shopping bags,they felt important at being able to do their own shopping and honestly never acted up.I also NEVER ever bought them anything when they were shopping with me,so as not to encourage tantrums,for me it worked.

When the younger ones were a baby and toddler,I put the shopping after the till in the caddy and then put the kids first in their carseats where they were looking at books etc and only THEN packed everything up in bags.

re Snotty kids

A fixed item of their dressing in winter was a dyed cloth nappy ( stoffwindel) tied around their neck and i carried always two spare ones in my handbag.Quick and easy to wipe off snot,absorb driping saliva and to wipe off the occasional chocolate smear and can be washed at 60C° (when coloured) or 95° (white)

All my bratz,when they were between 1-2 years old, were put on a harness with a cord attached to it, when we went out for a walk be it in town or at the shores of the lake/canal,every parent knows that one can get distracted and that toddlers can be quicker than lightning sometimes.....so it's not only for the tots safety but also a little for the parents peace of mind,but this does not mean that when shopping in town and meeting a friend in the street you have the liberty of nattering away hours.....

well just my two cents on a few things

Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way (I haven't got kids BTW), but if an older person was to offer advice or seemingly tell me what to do. Rather than go on the defensive, I would thank them for their concern and send them off with a polite smile. Shouting "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS... HANDS OFF etc" strikes me as a patently rude way to treat generally, well meaning people.

I don't mean to preach, but I think senior citizens should be accorded a certain degree of respect no matter how batty they may seem.