Tips on Divorce

don't be so negative; my advice - get married, but to someone non-Swiss.

I was doing so well and then this red passport with a white cross appeared

Still thinking along the lines of a disgruntled bunny-boiler husband + family possibly trying to gather discrediting information .... some aspects of the thread might want to be edited, Rene, and replaced with a blanket statement of "mental abuse", for example.

In theory yes, but in practice often not. In some cases pregnant women themselves do not feel for the child until its actually born and they hold it in their arms.

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I gather, the profile of your mother-in-law is one who does not work (or works only part time), is quite dependent on her husband (possibly their relationship is not completely rosey) , and would feel that losing control of her son would make her lonely,old, unwanted and perhaps useless. She is in denial that her son is grown-up.

I'm not saying she will change, but it may take the child to be tangible before she realises the way she and her son behave are not your interests or that of the baby.

On the security issue: You are doing a good job publicly of remaining anonymous (like I have been doing with my job loss thread), but the risk is probably more local. Make sure your computer is password protected in case it goes "missing", preferably at hard-drive level( Windows passwords dont mean anything if the disk is accessed as a slave drive). Okay, its a pain everytime your turn the computer on, but the security is worth it.

Although nobody can make your problems go away, it is great to see you are getting plenty of support here, especially on the motherhood side.

Yes, you are right. She a stay at home mom and is totally dependant on her husband.

Mark/Oldhand and Lob Rockster,

Thank you for yor concern but i think i am still ok but will let you know if he situation changes. Though i doubt it. My husband is not the type who likes reading or chatting. I can only hope that it stays that way.

The good news though is that i have spoken to a lady from the Gemeinde and am meeting with another women's organisation later this week.

I think marriage in general is quite difficult perhaps it would be good to keep a list possible places to go to & organisations to contact just in case there is someone else who needs help??

I would be able to help there since i am getting to know quite a few.

Hi Rene, don't forget that it could also be friends and relis that point him out to this site. He will be interested then as it concerns him.

A great idea. Possibly much needed too. How about ... you start a new thread in the Help section, since you have the links ready.

All the best.

Interesting one. In Switzerland if you are married you are the father! If not it can be disputed.

By the way I will get the name of this womens help group next time I am out.

As an aside I would suggest the timing of any divorce with your solicitor. It might not be to your advantage to get a quick quickie and even though you might not want his (or his family's) money now you might in a few years time or your unborn child might well want it.

In the meantime you can have a lift from all the support you are getting here.

You are right, if i end up going for a 'quick quicky' divorce it will not benefit the situation at all. It will also be a bureaucratic nightmare to register the child because of the paternity tests and heaps of documents i would require.

I.t.o money, i thought i would be able to go at it alone but after sitting down and checking the prices of a kindergarten, international school, aupair and the escalation of costs once baby is here, I can say with certainty that it would be a struggle to go at it alone. Have you seen the prices of baby prams!!! & toys, clothes, etc. I have enquired at a crèche close to home and its about 1800CHF p/m for three days a week!

I would definately not refuse the help.

Hi All,

Just an update on my situation.

(the sun is hiding...behind the BIG dark clouds)

Before i share the bad news, here's the good:-)

Baby is doing very well and growing stronger. My little angel is quite a fighter. I started feeling the first movements about 2 weeks ago:-)

My situation seem to have become even more ridiculous. My husband is now sueing ME FOR MAINTENANCE!

He wants me to pay him 2500CHF per month. He also applied for an urgent application to have me removed from our apartment. I would have no where to go if he succeeds. Imagine, husband gets court order to have his pregnant wife thrown out on the street and she has to pay him 2500 towards his life expenses!! This is the last thing i expected. It just shows how truely instable he is. This is making me awfully scared.

I am trying to stay calm and stress free but there seem to be a new punch every week!

Regards,

Rene

Hi Rene,

I am glad to hear that you and your angel are progressing well, that is no doubt the most important thing.

However I am saddened to hear that the father of your child is behaving the way he is. However I imagine what he is trying to do with his demand for maintenance is extend his position. What I mean by that is, often in disputes, the courts look for compromise in the middle. So if he demands maintenance, he is probably hoping this will minimise his liability in the long run. It also sounds like he is trying to put so much pressure on you at once that you will just leave the country. Don't let him beat you. I know of no juristictions (in the western world) that would recognise his demand of maintenance from you, a now single mother-to-be, as anything other than an irresponsible fantasy.

Ok, I am not sure if this is useful at all, but it sounds like your situation might be improved if it is defused a little, as he seems to be losing perspective.

I think you said earlier that he refused to seek support, like talking together to a mediator. You also said his mum is a control person, and that she is likely now to take the viewpoint of her son.

It sounds to me that it would be good if his mother becomes less of a driving force, in other words, if you get her to see reason, he might calm down a bit.

This may sound strange, but have you tried to propose to them to have a meeting with all three of you, plus a mediator (no lawyers just yet). For one, it may help if they see you, so the physicality of it hits home, and they may realize it is in their interest to keep you healthy, and thus, not unhappy and stressed.

Perhaps the mediator can help in preventing shouting and name calling, so that you can have some discussion about how the future should be organized, since they both have to face reality a bit more, rather than going on the legal attack and lose all sight of what is really best for both parties (a normalized contact in which joint custody one day could be a good option).

Anyway, it may have gone too far for this, but sometimes, personal meetings can help diffuse things, in the right surroundings. Also, I know it is frustrating to acknowledge his mother, but since she has so much influence anyway, perhaps if she feels she is included (a bit), she will become much less hostile. I don't know...

Hi Everyone,

Just a short update on my situation.

I/we are doing well. Baby is in excellent health and exceptionally playful. The doc says it is girl:-)!!!

My situation remains stable (i think). No more/extra demands from my 'noch' husband. The good news is that the court date is set for early October. Hopefully i would be able to get this behind me and concentrate on what is important.

In the mean time, i have spoken to the owner of the aprtment and she said that they support me 100% to stay in the flat. She has been exceptional so much that she would visit me from time to time just to see how i am:-). I have also contacted the Gemeinde to alert them of my situation. (And to also work on the financial side - Told them that the last thing i want is to be dependant on the social system - said that with my husbands' current actions - he will turn me into the very thing people hate in this country considering that i will be a mother and will reduce my work hours to look after my child.) Hopefully the conservatives in the Gemeinde will view this favourably

I am otherwise ok, i think. I am healthy and able to work .

Glad to hear you are OK.

You seem to have hit the jackpot with your landlord, they are not always so sympathetic. But it goes to show that, despite some of our complaints, there are a lot of good-hearted Swiss people out there.

Keep us updated, and let us know if there are any problems you need help with.

Just wanna say to take care of you both (you and the little girl).

I'm sorry. I wish I could help you some way ...

Wish you the best.

Hi Rene,

Glad to hear that you are doing well, and congrats on having such a great landlord!!

Keep us posted on how you're (both) doing!!

Megan

Thanks both you

Cute baby Kenitza

Thank you Megan. Will definately do:-) Now just the wait to 'meet little' one

Hi Rene,

Great to hear you & the baby are doing fine. Have you started looking for childcare yet? I know it probably seems like a liftime away till you go back to work after the birth but you need to start looking ASAP; places can be very hard to come by. You will probably also get some stick for going back to work when you have a baby, other women are the worst culprits for this. It's best to be prepared for it though I tend to just ignore people who say I'm a bad mother for putting my 2 sons in a kinderkrippe ( nursery).

Hi Lou,

Nice to hear from you:-) Yes i have visited a few child care places and the international ones seem to be the best. They have a curriculum for the baby (from 6months) and the daily diet is planned. The best thing about it is that the cost is more or less the same as the 'normal' day cares.

I am aware that i might be demonised in court (by his lawyer) for going back to work but if he has any brains he wont go there. I was informed by a (swiss) colleague who got divorced 5years ago that according to the law i have the right to stay at home and if this is what i demand he should pay for both of us at least until the child is of school going age after which i am 'allowed' if i want to to start working 10percent.

Rene,

I have read all of the posts - stay strong! Don't want to add to your stress, you really don't need it, but some dreadful thoughts came to mind.

1. Staying in CH. Does your permit say that you are here because of "Schweizer Ehemann"? If so, is there a risk that once you are no longer married, you will be asked to leave the country? There was a dreadful story in the paper at the weekend about a woman who had been married for two years when her husband died in a hang-gliding accident; her 1yo son is allowed to remain in Switzerland but she has to leave! If she had been married 5 years she could stay. Obviously there has been an uproar over this, but it is not an isolated case at all apparently.

2. Working. How is your relationship with your employer? The law forbids them for sacking you while you are pregnant, but afterwards ... If you have no job, I guess you have no permit? Gemeinde's generally don't like social case foreigners, although, as several have pointed out, hubby really has to pay so you actually may not have to rely on social support i you were sacked?

3 Paternity. Baby's born to a marriage are presumed by law to be the husband's baby, but he can dispute it and demand a paternity test (which my friend did successfully and was therefore not forced to pay for the rest of his life for a child which was not his). Therefore while you are married the baby is presumed to be his. Is there a risk that if your divorce goes through before the baby is born this presumption is no longer there? (surely not, but you never know). I don't want you to be in a situation where you have to prove he is the father with a paternity test, so maybe you should at least wait til bub is born before divorcing, so the presumption is the other way. (not a legal opinon, just a cautious person worrying here).

4. Maintenance. I must admit I was not surprised to read he is asking you for maintenance; with lawyers involved it is generally brutal. Perhaps your lawyer would like to suggest that he married you to get you here to support him while he studies, and now that you are pregnant he wants a divorce because you are no longer "viable". Everything I have ever heard is that men pay dearly generally in a divorce (generally meaning when wife is not working) and now there are working women who pay dearly sometimes too, however, where there are children concerned, the one looking after them gets plenty from the other one. So make sure you keep the kid (make sure the court knows he did not want the child).

5 The child. I have heard that it is almost impossible for a man to get custody. It is so rare that I once knew a man who had to fight for years for custody of his kids even when his wife was in a mental institution; the law is very clearly biased toward the mother (the law and society and those implementing the law as well). Don't worry about this, at least this should be OK.

So therefore; while it might be nice to stay at home with baby and get maintenance from him (ie sue him back) you may risk losing your permit, and in any case, it may not be enough as he is studying, and his parent's money won't be considered in the equation.

So you need to work and therefore risk having to pay him maintenance (this is quite a serious possibility if he lived off you til now). Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Yet, I firmly believe you will be given custody, and therefore the maintenance will swing the child's way and therefore your way. Is that what the lawyer is telling you?

You will really struggle to pay for childcare while working. As you pointed out, it is horrendously expensive, and I don't know how people would do it on one income .... perhaps it is subsidized by the Gemeinde in such cases? I sincerely hope your permission to stay here is secure, as I can just imagine the Gemeinde thinking along the lines of "costly auslander woman with kid .... gotta go!". I would seriously wait two years for the divorce to go through. I do not see many advantages for you doing it too soon (not being a lawyer, just a worrier!).

Last but not least, and I really hate to say this, but Switzerland has an extraordinarily high rate of family murders, where the father loses it and tops the wife and himself (it was not a sexist statement, it is the father that does this). I really would take any threats seriously. Like you, he is feeling enormous amount of stress, and some people deal with it with violence. Loss of control of his life may make him want to retake control. Did you change those locks yet?

Lisa

3 Paternity. Baby's born to a marriage are presumed by law to be the husband's baby, but he can dispute it and demand a paternity test (which my friend did successfully and was therefore not forced to pay for the rest of his life for a child which was not his). Therefore while you are married the baby is presumed to be his. Is there a risk that if your divorce goes through before the baby is born this presumption is no longer there? (surely not, but you never know). I don't want you to be in a situation where you have to prove he is the father with a paternity test, so maybe you should at least wait til bub is born before divorcing, so the presumption is the other way. (not a legal opinon, just a cautious person worrying here).

A friend of mine who divorced her Swiss husband told me that if she had had a baby at any point up to 9 months after her divorce was finalised then legally the baby would have been considered to be her husbands. This was regardless of how long they had been seperated or if she was with another man.

Thank you Lisa,

I am glad i am not the only person who seems to worry around the clock .

I have thought of all the points mentioned. Especially first the permit. My permit does state that i am married to him but it also has my employer's details on it. (i usually have to take it to the company to stamp for reknewal)

I was informed by the Gemeinde organisation(INFODONA) that the chance of being booted out is very low. I have a good job, pay taxes, am integrated (as best as one an be expected to be), no outstanding debts, no debts, etc. and baby is swiss & not being a social case scores one very high. Switzerlan signed the European Convention on Human Rights in 1962 a section protects protects the foreign parent of a swiss child (a friend used this law to his advantage and is still here today after 8years. Did your friend not have a lawyer? THere are so many organisations giving information. I should/must start a thread on where to get help.

Good idea, i will ask my lawyer to suggest the that (he brought me here to to use me to support him financially during his studies) in court, its difficult to prove but making the suggestion is quite clever.

I.t.o work. i have just checked the above link on the European Commission’s publication “The prohibition of discrimination under European human rights law”

http://ec.europa.eu/employment_socia.../prohib_en.pdf

And yes you are right swiss law is compatible with this since they have signed too but this would make a good new thread which i will start later (need more time)

I have informed the Gemeinde of my situation, and also mentioned that with his claims (money and wanting the apartment) he will turn us (baby and I) into a social case and that i need their assistance to keep him liable for his part. Of course they are well aware that we are not dependant on the social system in any way. (Thank God for that). A nice lady called and said they will gve me a buzz again when i am 8months pregnant:-)

My husband has lost his mind, I say, even if i have to pay for him, that will only be for two months, then baby is here... He will then have to pay for 20 years... If he doesnt, the Gemeinde will take charge... Even if i end up leaving the country we have a bilateral agreement between our two countries where i can still claim the child support and it is automatically deducted from his income here.

I have stopped stressing, it is a stressful situation but baby needs me to be healthy and happy. I say what is the worst that can happen? Them kicking me out right? Even with that i still benefit.