Wanted: Advice on costs [cost of living in Geneva area]

Daily Life, Swiss News and General Topics
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Hi there,

I will likely be moving to Switzerland (Geneva area) next spring and just wanted to run a few checks before taking the plunge - particularly with regards to the cost of living. I know there are a lot of threads on this but having relocated within mainland Europe twice before, it's better to get personalised advice...

I work in the journalism sector in Cologne and currently earn around €70,000 p.a. as a manager, plus a few other freelance bits and bobs on the side which probably take my earnings up to around €85-90k, but I work pretty much non-stop and am lucky if I get one day off a week. This affords us a relatively priveleged lifestyle in that my wife does not have to work and can stay at home with our eight-month-old baby. We have a 92sqm apartment with two bedrooms and a balcony right in the city centre and plenty of money left over each month for flights home, savings, eating out etc. We do not have a car here and have always relied on public transport.

My new post is offering a basic of CHF 110,000, which would probably go up to CHF 120,000, possibly more, with bonuses and other benefits. I would be able to keep my freelance stuff on the side too, although the idea of moving is partly to reduce my workload so I can spend more time with my family.

We would not be looking to live in Geneva city centre - in fact we would rather live somewhere with plenty of outside space in preparation of the little one getting up and about in the next few months. We'd like a three-bedroom place (plans for more children/frequent visitors) and, in a perfect world, a bit of outside space too. I'm well aware that rent in Switzerland is a lot more expensive than in Germany. We have friends near Nyon so somewhere close to there would be nice.

Bearing in mind we would like to get a car to make the very most of the surrounding area (skiing etc), can anyone advise on whether our expectations are realistic or whether we are completely undercutting ourselves on the salary front?

Any help would be hugely appreciated.

Many thanks,

BayernFan

2
that's a top 10% salary, doesn't need further explaining i think. You can look for rent prices on immoscout24.ch there should be plenty of suburban areas between geneve and nyon.

3
You're talking about Chf 10k per month for you, your wife and a small baby.

The average household salary in Switzerland is around Chf 7'000.--, average taking into consideration the lady on the super market checkout to the boss of Nestle.

What do you think ?

4
I don't think you'll keep your available savings every month to the same level as 120k is not such a great salary in Geneva for a family of 3.

Yes people go by with half of it if need be but you already have a great lifestyle with lots of benefits where you are.

I dont think 90k euros in Cologne is the same as 120k in Geneva, I would guess 140-150k chf would be closer.

Taxes in geneva are among the highest in the country and so are rents.

Net salary per month is 7730 according to http://www.lohncomputer.ch

From those between 2000-3000 will go to your rent. Do the math for the rest but I think you have it better where you are.

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Welcome to the Forum.

I realize as a newcomer there are lots of questions and you feel your situation is 100% unique. The good news is...it's not (at least with respect to this topic)! As you have seen, this question is asked over and over. The answer is that your cost of living will vary from someone who also is married with a kid. It's all about the choices you make.

Here are some threads that I think cover the topic nicely, including links and examples of actual expenses. The first one is a bit old, but quite comprehensive and worth a look. The second is more recent:

Cost of living - help needed to get it right

Cost of living in Switzerland-with examples

There are more than 100 threads that talk about cost of living. Some might be relevant to you and others not, but do have a read through the more recent ones. There's a LOT of good advice in there, you just have to do a little of the leg (er, reading) work yourself:

http://www.englishforum.ch/search2.php?q=cost+of+living

6
Hi everyone,

Thanks ever so much for taking the time to respond. I've taken all your points on board and they're very helpful.

One thing I would say is to base the comparison on my "9-5" salary of €70k (rather than €85-90k) as the idea behind us moving to Switzerland is for me not to have to work as much, i.e. drop the freelance stuff eventually, actually take weekends off (!) etc... The CHF 110-120k would be for a "9-5", at least that's what I'm told.

Any more points welcome. The other thing is, with a net of ca. CHF 7,700 per month, will that get me a CHF 3,000 apartment? All the decent 3-bedroom places seem to cost towards that and I wonder what landlords expect as proof of income - just going off what they can be like in Germany.

Thanks again and have a good week,

BayernFan

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BayernFan, first of all good luck to you and your family in making the decision.

If I can pitch in, here's my two cents. If you just look at the money side of it, there is no way that the current lifestyle that your German salary allows you to enjoy will be even remotely comparable with 110K or 120K in Switzerland. I second the poster who said more like 140k-150k. Whatever the average Swiss family makes is irrelevant to you or anyone else looking to make a massive lifestyle change - you're not the average Swiss family, it needs to make sense for your particular family/situation.

Having said that, money is not all - maybe I am getting wise (i.e. old) but more and more often I think what's the point of making a lot of money if you don't have the time or health (burnout, stress, etc.) to enjoy life with the people who are important to you?

By the way you described it, I think that this potential move to Switzerland may largely increase your and your family's quality of life. You will definitely survive/live just fine with the mentioned Swiss salary. No luxuries, but no starving either, by any means. if you're willing to take the "pay cut", take the plunge and embrace a more balanced lifestyle...then move to Switzerland! Good luck!

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The general advice is that the cost of rental should not exceed 25 to 30% of the net income, though for higher salaries you can go nearer the 30% level.

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I think landlords will want to know how much you're earning, and will be wary if you're spending 50% of your salary on housing. They don't want you going into arrears if you have a sudden financial crisis, or having to leave because you can no longer afford the place. The housing market is pretty competitive in the cities, so landlords can pick and choose their tenants, and will always prefer low risk ones. Realistically, you need to looking for somewhere that costs no more than CHF 2,500.

To compare food costs, try filling your usual shopping list online at www.leshop.ch (without paying at the end, obv!). That will give you a good idea of standard supermarket prices.

Also, don't forget to factor in health insurance costs, it's much more expensive here than in Germany as your employer doesn't pick up half the premium, contributions are not capped according to salary, and your family aren't covered by your insurance - everyone (including children and stay-at-home parents) needs their own policy. You can shop around for cheaper deals if you're happy to be restricted to a named GP, can pay higher co-pays when you get treatment, and/or don't mind calling your insurer for permission before seeing a doctor, but I think you'll need to budget at least CHF 1000 per month.

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This bit caught my eye. Make sure when you're looking that you know what the terminology means. If you read 3 rooms, it usually means 2 bedrooms. The kitchen and living area sometimes count as a room. In our case we have 2.5 rooms - two bedrooms plus the combined kitchen/living area. I think the terminology can be different in the Romandie area, so folks down there please chime in with accurate info!

In your case with just a young baby, I'd be looking for just 2 bedrooms, to be honest. A third bedroom would be a luxury and an additional expense from the start. You could set up the 2nd bedroom as an office/baby room and get by for quite some time, saving money. Then decide if upgrading is necessary or worth it.

I agree with BokerTov - your quality of life and amount of time with family will probably improve, so if the figures are reasonable don't be afraid to take the leap.

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You could, of course, also live across the border in France where you get a far better deal on housing etc.

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And waste a lot of time travelling to and from work when the OP's stated wish is to spend more time with his family.

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The OP mentioned that he wanted to live outside the city and France is actually very close and it would be possible to rent a house with a garden for his little one, very difficult in Geneva on the salary he would earn

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There's far more to life than take home pay ! Sure it maybe cheaper in France but the hastle of the morning/evening commute.....is it really worth that few extra Chf 100's ??

To save anything significant you need to be well outside Geneva

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Traffic is AWFUL is you live in France, don't do it!!

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How much of that is actually paid out every month?

Childcare, should you wish to seek it for children under five is very expensive.

But if mom is OK with staying at home, that is no problem.

comparis.ch let's you calculate the tax-rate, the cost of health-insurance for your canton (and your town).

Eating out in restaurants is very expensive - probably in Geneva even more so than in Zurich.

Honing your cooking and baking skills has an almost instant ROI, as well as getting a picknick basket, a backpack and a cooler ;-)

If you do move over, maybe take a smaller but less expensive flat at first.

It's much easier to follow the market once you've lived in the country for a while. It's also easier to achieve the "first mover" advantage...

That said, Geneva is a high-tax, high-rent, high-cost-of-living canton (probably because it's inhabited by so many people that don't have to pay taxes: the remaining lot has to come up with the missing taxes, while the tax-privileged drive up rents and prices). Combine that with the real-estate racket there and you have a nice "mixture".

From this point of view alone, I wouldn't move there (with your data, my tax-burden would double compared to where I live now).

The lake is nice, though and they have a lot of green around the city, parks where you can have a picknick, play frisbee.

Maybe take a few days off your freelance jobs, use up your vacation and see how you like it.

The best would probably to find flat via AirBNB or so, where you can get "the feel" for the place.

17

Use the following rental property sites to get an idea of costs for a 2 or 3 bed place. Focus on Nyon (don’t bother with Geneva, too expensive and too difficult to find anywhere to rent) and then expand the search area if you can to 15/20 km around that.

www.immoscout24.ch
www.immostreet.ch
www.homegate.ch
www.home.ch

Following on from 3Wishes comments about the rooms, here in Fribourg canton we don’t count kitchens/bathrooms in the room numbers so a 4 room place could be either a 3 bed plus living room or a 2 bed with a living and separate dining room. 4.5 is usually a combined living/dining room with 3 beds.

You could also look at France to see what prices are there too. What you need to know is where in Geneva you’ll be working so you can make sure you don’t have to travel all the way across the city to get to/from work because Geneva traffic is horrendous at the best of times.

Migros and Coop are the big two for supermarkets, but there are also plenty of Aldi’s and Lidl’s around these days so it’s worth shopping in those as they’re much better value. Denner too is good, plus Otto’s.

Use the SBB website ( www.sbb.ch ) to work out journey times from any locations where you think you might look for properties to give you an indication of the various commuting times.

18
That seemed high to me so when I went to lohncomputer, it turns out that this 7,700 includes a deduction for your employer pension of 600 pm. This may or may not happen, depending on the company's scheme so I would treat that one as a maybe.

But you do need to take into account health insurance (which probably was in your taxes in Germany), for 2 you are going to be paying 500-600, depending on the deductible/excess you go for. Www.comparis.ch (has eng page) for more details on that.

19
Hi all,

Really can't thank you enough for all the helpful posts and question-raising... Maybe I'll be able to pay some of you back with a beer if and when I arrive... or maybe not if I have no money left!

To answer the question above, I get just over €4k net from my "9-5" job in Germany, of which about €1,200 goes out on rent including "Nebenkosten". Obviously the freelance stuff is on top - but then the work I do for that is on top as well.

We normally have a fair bit left once all the outgoings go out (I have a few different pensions ticking along from previous jobs and from when I was freelancing - I could probably tone the contributions down a bit now. We don't have a car, though, and that's something I would like in Switzerland. Hopefully that leaves enough for a bit of skiing at the end of the month but I guess we'll see.

I'm alright on the room situation with flats: the situation is similar in Germany (three rooms means two bedrooms etc) and I speak a bit of French so I am aware.

I've been looking plenty online but if anyone hears of any 3-4 room flats that come available in and around the Nyon area before they go online, I'm all ears!

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Nyon will be quite a change after Cologne. Do you really want to live in such a small town? I much prefer Geneva. It has lots of parks which are great for children.