I'm lucky in that I've not had any problems that couldn't be sorted out with pistols-at-dawn...
dave
I've been reading a number of whinging threadsd recently about use of shower, late night music and so on, and it prompted me to ask: who actually sets these rules in the first place ? Are there standard documents ? Is it set by the owner or the agent ? Can the residents change them if they all agree ?
In our block we were having problems with the "small wash" and the hausfrau called a meeting of the families and there was a vote on changing the small wash policy.
Similarly we recently allowed limited Sunday washing and the hausfrau canvassed the residents before the Sunday washes were added to the schedule.
That sounds ...almost democratic. That can't be right
I wonder if the owner or agent can object to a reworking of some of the more significant rules or whether they are enschrined in legislation somewhere...
dave
basically a hausordnung always was/is issued by the owner respectively the renting agency,they are standard documents ( I am not quite sure if they are based upon the OR or ZR) and should be handed to the tenant upon signing the contract of lease OR should be publicly put up somewhere in the hall of the building for everyone to read.
In some old buildings you might find relicts of the 50' or 60' stating that,you were not allowed to dry your laundry on the balcony NOR in the flat NOR on a sunday,stating en detail about when you were allowed what,given instructions on how to air your flat etc etc I am pretty sure some of you would have a field day to pick this apart
Anyway,as we Swiss are a folk of tenants,it's almost given to us from birth that you have to consider thy neighbour and for us these things are so normal and a part of our way of being that we do not question them,as much as a person will who was not brought up with that!
In our building we do NOT issue a hausordnung!New tenants get a pot with flowers and a letter written by me where I state only about 4 things and the rest is trust from my part to them, that they have some common sense and will behave 'normally' and with consideration for the neighbours.
So far with ONE exception in the 12 years i live here and do that, it works really well.
In my very humble opinion its contra productive to set too many rules anyway,be it to kids, be it to teenagers or be it to tenants whatever,the more someone feels reined in,the more someone will try to break out!
There is actually no such thing as a law against flushing toilets and taking showers, something I have to repeat ad nauseam to my English friends.
Right now I'm considering doing the Swiss thing and ask the other residents of the house (big mansion converted in flats) where I live for a meeting to discuss parking arrangements as it is a mess and will lead to conflicts.
Born diplomats we are us Swiss...
In Manchester? You'd be better off cleaning your gun!
I don't know 100% if they are laws or not but you can be sure that if you break them you can get a visit from the Police if someone complains .
There are laws against noise, for example you're not supposed to engage in noisy activities between 10pm and 7am in Canton Geneva and under that law a neighbour can indeed call the police(although generally some mediation is often attempted) but otherwise it's all house rules layed down by the building manager or the "Regie".
They are binding orders as is stated in the swiss obligationenrecht (don't know if this qualifies as a law)
MIETE §257f ( article about considering thy neighbour)
http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/220/a257f.html
and this is the link to the whole texts regarding letting and tenancy
So, I guess the question is - are showering, peeing, flushing, and laundry considered "noisy" activities? I understand a raging party being against a noise ordinance but...
It varies from house to house. If you are in an older building with elderly residents then a feather dropping after 10pm could be bad news for you. If you are in a more modern building that is better insulated against noise then things are usually more relaxed.
It's all about perceptions, for me, someone taking a leak at night won't bother me, even if insulation is poor. For an old lady who can't sleep very well, it will be a problem...
So hanging laundry on the balcony is allowed? I always thought that was a big no no
Some are bothered, some aren't. Never been a problem at my mum's building for example.
I know this is an old thread, but it seems silly to start a new one on the same subject. It's a bit of a long story, so please bear with me. It's about a parking space. If you get bored, just skip to my question in the last paragraph...
Parking is a touchy subject in our block. Each apartment has a garage and a Vorstellplatz in front of the garage. Of the nine flats in our block, six are occupied by Eigentümer (apartment owners). We live in one of the three rented flats.
When we signed our rental contract, the house rules (Hausordnung) were included as part of the agreement. The Hausordnung specifies that "second cars and visitors' cars must be parked on the Vorstellplatz allocated to the apartment". We have two cars, so I normally parked our second car in front of our garage.
This proved extremely unpopular with the neighbours, who all have only one car, which they park tidily in their garages. However, they didn't make any comment to me about it - they held an extraordinary Eigentümerversammlung (meeting of the apartment owners) to discuss what to do about the problem, and the first I knew about it was when I was summoned to a "discussion" with their appointed spokesman and formally told that, while it was OK to park in front of the garage occasionally, I was not allowed to use it as a permanent parking space.
In the interests of neighbourliness, I have since parked on the street, well away from the building.
Our tenant neighbour was later given the same lecture, even though he had taken the flat on the basis that he could use the space in front of the garage for his second car (the landlord told him this). He has now had to rent a garage about 6km away, and is very fed up about it.
Never mind, I thought. I am a guest in this country and I should try to fit in with our neighbours' wishes, and it's best to avoid confrontation. My two-car tenant neighbour, who is Swiss, seemed to have the same live-and-let-live attitude.
Which is why it came as a bit of a kick in the teeth when, a couple of months later, I received another phone call from the same Eigentümerversammlung (EV) spokesman, telling me that the EV had met again and decided to change the wording of the Hausordnung so that it expressly forbids using the space in front of the garages as a parking space.
This really annoyed me, and made me feel like parking in front of the garage for the hell of it. I didn't, of course, but it brings me to my question:
Who decides the house rules? If a tenant is negatively affected by any changes to the Hausordnung, shouldn't he or she be entitled to have a say? Are the Eigentümer allowed to simply dictate such changes? If I sign up for an apartment on the basis of one set of rules, can the rules then be changed without my consent?
It's probably been said before but you should refer it to www.mieterverband.ch and see what they say.
It sounds a bit unfair that the rules get chopped and changed by those residents who are owners of the flats and therefore seem to have priority over the renters.
The Mietverband should be able to clarify your rights.
I agree. The rules put down in the contract should be adhered to by both parties.
Here, in blocks of owner-occupied flats, this rule applies to owner-occupiers too. No-one is permitted to park a second car in front of their own garage on a regular basis. Only the garage itself is 'bought' along with the flat.
The area in front is theoretically commmunal territory and is kept clean etc. by the caretaker together with the other communal areas. The 'external' parking may well have annoyed the residents whose own 'place in front of the garage' is at the corner and cannot be used for parking.
In addition, as the garages are not very broad, many of the folk park their car, unload their goods, and then drive the car into the garage. If others have left their car in the next spot, it's probably difficult to open the doors wide enough to get bigger articles out.
Perhaps, in the case of the OP, the owners just didn't think of this sort of problem when they permitted second cars there. Or perhaps they don't like the forecourt looking so untidy with cars all over the place.
But, as Sandgrounder said, check with the relevant authorities through the link she gave.
Yes, I quite saw their point of view. But it would have been so much better if someone had just said "by the way, we prefer it if you don't leave your car on the forecourt", instead of all this pseudo-legal nonsense.
By the way, thanks to the site www.mieterverband.ch suggested by Sandgrounder and also a useful site called www.mietrecht.ch , I found the relevant part of the Obligationenrecht (part of Swiss Federal Law):
Art. 269d
1 Der Vermieter kann den Mietzins jederzeit auf den nächstmöglichen
Kündigungstermin erhöhen. Er muss dem Mieter die Mietzinserhöhung mindestens zehn Tage vor Beginn der Kündigungsfrist auf einem vom Kanton genehmigten Formular mitteilen und begründen.
2 Die Mietzinserhöhung ist nichtig, wenn der Vermieter:
a. sie nicht mit dem vorgeschriebenen Formular mitteilt;
b. sie nicht begründet;
c. mit der Mitteilung die Kündigung androht oder ausspricht.
3 Die Absätze 1 und 2 gelten auch, wenn der Vermieter beabsichtigt,
sonstwie den Mietvertrag einseitig zu Lasten des Mieters zu ändern, namentlich seine bisherigen Leistungen zu vermindern oder neue Nebenkosten einzuführen.
So, according to para 3, the landlord can only change the rental conditions for the worse if he notifies the tenant at least 10 days before the start of the next termination notice period a) using the prescribed official form, b) giving reasons for the change and c) without any suggestion that the rental agreement is being terminated.
This part you have quoted actually only refers to a rental price increase (= Mietzinserhöhung) and has thus no significance as to the "house rules" and how you use the parking spaces. Paragraph 3 refers the paragraphs 1 and 2. Hope that's not too confusing.
As I understand it, paragraph 3 applies paras 1 and 2 to any changes to the contract which lessen the value of the thing being rented. This would include removing a parking space from the deal (the Hausordnung was mentioned in the contract, and the parking space was mentioned in the Hausordnung).