And... coming from the US, I knew a lot of people (myself included) who would have preferred Sunday off as it was the only day when the whole rest of the family would be home / not working. Yet, they (I) HAD to work (some) Sundays in order for it to be "fair" for everyone to get some weekend time off. No matter what someone else professed as their own preference. (I have seen many cases where "flexible schedule" is condition of employment, including working weekends.)
The funny thing to me about it is that in the US, in the small towns, often there are "blue laws" in effect, that the stores HAD to be completely closed at least one day a week. If they were open on Sunday, generally they'd be closed either Monday or Tuesday. This concept of being closed on Sundays is not exclusive to Switzerland and the idea isn't completely foreign to the US either.
I'm confused about how many people come here, move to small towns and then are flabbergasted that they can't shop on Sundays.
I LOVE the fact that Sunday is quiet with respect to lawn movers and noise etc. Having a shop open won't directly very many people. I'm not suggesting that Sunday should just be another noisy day, just that shops can be open for people to exercise the option to shop on that day.
When Tesco and all the large stores started to do 24hrs shopping in the UK, they assured the workers they would never be forced to work on Sundays or at night - guaranteed- and that they would wo/man the stores with students, retired people and those who CHOSE to work those hours. Yeah, my foot - it lasted about a year then all the contracts were changed- ad no choice given anymore about 'unsociable' hours. Like those poor people who have to work until late on Christmas Eve - only to return on Boxing day (26th) - Merry Christmas and Happy families. Our right to shop shouldn't mean that workers have no right about working days and hours.
In the UK, shopping is so often the family activity of choice ... babies and kids dragged around kicking and screaming around the shops and supermarkets all week-end. I only went twice to shop around 11pm/midnight - just to see what it is like, and there were loads a families with toddlers and babies in prams. WTF
I'm not religious- but what is wrong with having one day a week to do something else than shopping
Be fair here, "Blue laws" are largely gone, and were mostly only in the Midwest and the Deep South (Bible Belt) but even in those areas, especially in the cities they are usually nonexistent in 2011...you can't compare that to Switzerland.
In the U.S. I have a choice. If I live in a small suburb with Blue Laws in Texas, I can move to a town nearby or a bigger city where that does not exist, int he same state, usually in driving distance from my work.
Do I have that choice in Switzerland?
As far as being a condition of employment. This is true, but you don’t' have to take that job, that is your choice. It is not enforced on you by a government law to make you live like everyone else. You can't really compare that. I've only had one job in my life where I had to work on Sunday and I accepted that. It was my choice. I didn’t have to take the job. I took it, because I wanted time off during the week for school.
Here I have no choice.
What you are doing is comparing a situation where people do have choices most of the time (maybe 10% of pe0ople have no choice due to their situation) compared to a system where 100% of people have no choice due to a law imposed on them from above.
Once again that is your choice, if you don't like it, don't do it.
I used to routinely shop on Sunday evening, because it was less crowded and fit my schedule, I would do laundry often on Sunday as well, as it is generally boring. I would do other things on Saturday, like day trips.
I can't do that easily in Switzerland as I work all week and have to cram everything on Saturday as I can't do my laundry on Sunday and can't shop on Sunday.
Where is my life style choice? Why is it because you don't like something you feel the need to force me to agree by LAW. It sounds like some type of totalitarianist ideology.
Notice that no one here is saying everyone must work on Sunday and shop on Sunday.
Why are you taking the EXTREME opposite approach?
No one here is dictating how YOU MUST live.
However you feel the need to dictate to me and others how we MUST LIVE. Because you have the ONLY RIGHT SOLUTION FOR MY LIFE.
I think part of the desire for Sunday shop hours is that people work more and longer hours or have lots of other responsibilities so, for some, to spread those out over one more day helps make things less hectic. I won't go near the stores on Saturdays since it's a mob scene.
Back when I was in Helsinki and working, shops there had even more draconian opening hours. Most shops closed by 6pm, only open 12-6pm on Saturday and closed on Sunday so, if you wanted groceries, you have to take time off of work or fight your way through the gauntlet on Saturday...Nowadays, though, Finland has entered the modern age with longer opening hours and shops being open on Sundays. And the place is still pretty quiet. I think most of the little shops in downtown still close for the entire month of July...which I always hated since invariably I'd need something from one of the specialty shops in July and I'd have to wait a month for them to get back from the lake....
I think Sunday shopping would be big here. Popular, too.
If shops must be closed here on Sunday, then WHY IN THE WORLD must they close so early on Saturdays?
Considering the increasing rate of population growth, I simply cannot imagine what a Migros on a Saturday is going to be like in another 20+ years. As it is now, my entire Saturday can easily be ruined because of the bad mood that a ridiculously crowded Migros puts me in. (And sadly, many people are forced to do their shopping on a Saturday, especially when you have kids or a crazy work schedule).
I would rather forfeit my "quiet Sunday" and not have the stress of being forced to do all my shopping, laundry, etc. on such and such days or times during the week or early on a Saturday. It just seems unreasonable to me that the one day of not being allowed to do much of anything (especially in the Winter) makes up for all the stress it helps cause during the rest of the week.
And at the very least, I think they should allow more Apothekes to be open on Sundays. It's not like people don't get sick on Sundays, and if I am sick, the last thing I want to have to do is jump on a train and travel 30 minutes to the one apotheke that is open on a Sunday in my area.
It is an outdated, Christian-based law that I feel is very inconvenient to modern society -- especially considering the fact that, in many households today, both partners work.
I would agree with you in principle - I am for total freedom of choice, meaning if as a shop owner you want to keep your shop open, you have the freedom to do it, if you want to keep it close, you have the freedom to do it without a law imposing either way from above.
I also completely agree with you (and others) that if you or I don't like something, in this country or elsewhere, we are perfectly free to voice our own opinion and be heard.
What I also think, however, is the following - from your post, taking the liberty of paraphrasing your own words, and applying your own logic (the capital letter is mine):
"Notice that no one here is saying everyone must LIVE IN SWITZERLAND "
"No one here is dictating WHERE you must live"
"However you feel the need to dictate to me and others how we must live. Because you have the only right solution for my life" ( A SWISS COULD PERFECTLY SAY: HELLO??? YOU ARE IN MY COUNTRY! ")
As I said, I am all for voicing one's own opinion. But the rest I find very arrogant, not just a tad bit. Maybe not everyone has the same options, but me personally, if I strongly dislike something or strongly disagree about something in a country, I move. No one is chaining me to Switzerland, being here is my own free choice and I take the good and the bad (again, with the freedom to voice my opinions and the freedom to move tomorrow if I want).
At risk of turning into the "is that what you want 'cause that's what'll 'appen" guy from Harry Enfield, while that's a lovely idea, it would be almost unthinkable for everyone to have Sunday as a day of rest.
First, there are essential public services. Not just the emergency services, but things like electricity and water supply require people to be there 24/7/365 to keep them running. If every power station were switched off and the power grid went black at midnight on Saturday night it would probably take at least a week to get everything back up and running again, only to be switched off again a week later.
Even if you only allow an exemption from your "Sundays off" rule for emergency services and public services that need to be kept running 24/7, there are also jobs that could be stopped on a Sunday but would result in enormous inconvenience if they were stopped on a Sunday. For example, what if public transport completely shut down on a Sunday? If you didn't have a car, you would be restricted to places within walking distance (and I'd be willing to bet the roads would be gridlocked with people not content to sit at home all day).
Then there are industries that, if they were forced to close down on Sundays, would become uncompetitive with other countries. Would ski resorts be profitable, or be able to compete for international tourist trade if they all shut down on a Sunday? Would factories that currently run 7 days a week be competitive with those in neighbouring countries if they had to stop production for 1 day a week?
If you look at the situation of your average supermarket or department store today, my local big Migros is open 8am-8pm Mon-Fri and 8am-6pm Saturday. That's 70 hours a week. Clearly they are not achieving this with a single set of employees on 70 hours a week. Creating a workforce that allows everyone to have at least a whole day off per week and still allowing the shop to open 7 days a week is not really any bigger a challenge (or imposition on the lives of the employees) than we already face.
So apart from annoying a bunch of people on this forum (and one or two non-Swiss-minded folks in other places), what actually is the benefit of not letting shops open on a Sunday (as opposed to something like the UK solution of allowing them to open on a Sunday but with legislation limiting the Sunday hours and preventing employers from compelling workers to work on Sundays)?
YOUR choice shouln't meant that others have to work to service that choice. That is arrogant to expect them to do so.
Our local shop does open Sunday morning- and this is allowed providing it is staffed by the owners only. Easy to say that people can 'take the job or leave it'. At Tesco and others in the UK, if you work for the shop, you have to do your share of wee-end or nights, Christmas Eve, boxing day, etc, etc - so the choice is working at Tesco's (or other supermarkets) or not - and for many = not having a job. What choice is that - and what is the effect on families?
I don't really give a monkey's if you find nothing better to do than shopping on Sunday (find it a bit sad- especially for those with children, but hey) nobody should be forced to give up their Sunday for YOU, should they? Very happy that the Unions here are putting their foot down on this. Fact is, most shop workers do not want to work on Sundays or at night- which is why after promising nobody would be forced to do so in the UK - they changed the contracts, as they could not keep shops open without forcing staff to do so.
I think you are a bit confused. The laws here are made & changed by the people by direct vote. If enough people want to change it, they put it up for a vote. Sunday opening has been voted on several times. So far no or small changes. When the Swiss voters want it to change it will.
Yes but everyone in Switzerland does not agree with these rules, some Swiss on this very thread don't agree, my girlfriend also does not agree, she is Swiss.
Instead of the "love it or leave it" argument, which really to me is intellectual laziness.
Why not argue the point? I have absolutely no problem with arguing any tradition in my home state, country, etc. None. Trust me when I say I will never tell someone "to get out, if they don't like it".
Maybe this is also an issue of personality, if someone comes to me with a rational argument, whoever they are, I will consider it based on the argument, not who is posing it. Then I will make a decision. I will also inform the people of the reality or likelihood that their change will happen (based on existing attitudes) but to say that someone who lives somewhere can't argue about a topic that affects there life because they are a foreign, to me is just ignorant nationalism. I'm sorry, no offense. Some folks think this is reason enough to act a certain way, but I don't take that approach, and I tend to treat others how I would like to be treated.
When my girlfriend lived in America, she complained about a few things, and I never told her once "well if you don't like it...go to the airport" LOL Most of her criticism were valid or she simply did not fully understand the reason why something was going on. Then again I can accept and admit that my country is not perfect and there are things that do need changing or would not be a problem to change if it makes more sense or is more convenient.
Snipped as I only want to say that shopping isn't really an emergency service nor is it a public service like public transport. Anyway, there are some stores open on Sunday for "emergency" food as are bakeries & food markets.
C) The result is therefore mandatory for everyone, this is affirmed to be the correct way to live, there is one correct way, everyone will conform to the right way to live. There is no choice. There is "the way".
D) Anyone who disagrees is a freak, a troublemaker, anti-Swiss, etc.
E) If they are a foreigner they should shut their mouth and leave (or if they are Swiss and not from around here, go back to the Canton they come from and shut up with their weird dialect).
End of discussion.
The real question is what leads folks to think they need to dictate personal life choices of others to begin with in such a manner? As I said (and someone else mentioned) my country also had these folks in certain areas, who did the same exact thing (called "blue laws") but today we find this backward, an abuse of government in our private lives, a "tyranny of the majority", etc.
It's funny someone on here mentioned Europe, saying that in Europe there are options besides shopping.
Yes, is Milan suffering due to shops being open?
What really bugs me is there is no rational argument. It simply is because people want to control others.
While companies can be as evil as they want about the other 6 days, the 1994 act explicitly bans companies from compelling workers to work on Sundays and guarantees the right to an alternative day off if they do work on Sundays.
More generally, ensuring shop workers have civilised employment rights is not dependent on allowing or not Sunday opening, it depends on having appropriate employment laws.
Apparently, we attach a different meaning to the word "intellectual laziness". To me, it is pointless arguing. I am a person who likes to do things instead of talking about them just for the sake of it. The point is: I can discuss a topic ad nauseam , but is any of this discussion going to change anything?
The solution to this issue is simple, really: if I am a Swiss and I disagree, I can voice my opinion through voting (and someone already pointed out in this thread that this matter was alread discussed/voted on, and people expressed their opinion). if I am a foreigner and I disagree and I cannot for the life of me coexist with the situation, since I cannot voice my opinion through voting, I can voice my opinion through moving.
Not the optimal solution for everyone (I never said that), but that's what *I* would do anyway.
As said, shops can open on Sundays but have to be staffed by the owners. Our small village supermarkets does open- staffed by the owners. Their choice. There are also shops opened at stations, etc, as they have different by-laws. This has been discussed many many a time, and as Federica said, the Swiss voted en masse against it to protect workers and their families.
Maybe it will change one day - but in this political system, the natives will choose.
What really sucks is when the weather is gorgeous on Saturday while I'm running indoor errands and then Sunday has crappy weather when I'm wanting to hit the outdoors
In general, I like having one day that's really quiet as compared to 24/7 shopping USA. I asked my husband what Europeans do when things are closed on Sundays and he brilliantly said "We spend time with family and friends" .......DUH!!!
We live in Alsace and what's really hard getting used to is everything closing between 12-2 but at least they're open later on Saturdays. Also, no bakeries open on Sundays (some weird old religious law).