Zurich or Luxembourg?

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1
Hi all,

I know there was a post on this back in 2007 which i have read through but I would love to get any more up to date ideas.

Me and my boyfriend (23 and 26) were pretty set on moving to Zurich. I work in Investment Banking and he is looking for a move into the Renewable Energy sector (after graduating with a masters in mechanical engineering). So Zurich seemed to be a great option for us both. He is half German and I am learning..we loved the city when we visited and we worked out that we could save up quite a bit of moving living there because the salaries seem to be high enough to more than compensate the cost of living.

However, after 3 months now i'm finding some things very difficult. The local canton office have given us conflicting information about work permits and have actually been quite rude in their emails. There have been some big bank closures recently meaning there's a lot more people in the job market then there are jobs for me and i would have some internal opportunities with my current employer with Luxembourg.

Neither of us have been to Luxembourg, but from my research it seems there are good energy and banking industries, the salaries are high, but not as high as Zurich, and the costs are high...but not as high as Zurich.

Does anyone have any opinions on them in comparison?

Has anyone worked in both and could give us an idea about standard of living?

Thanks in advance!

2

Without knowing your nationalities advice re the permits is general, but …

if you are both non-EU nationals then you need a pre-approved job offer from a Swiss employer to be able to work here. The criteria for non-EU hiring is outlined here:

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home…zulassung.html

If you don’t get the pre-approved permit then you can’t work, plain and simple.

If you’re EU nationals then it’s much simpler. You just need an employment contract and take that to the migration office.

What is your current permit status? If you are EU nationals you can be here for up to 3 months without having to register as being resident, but if you’ve passed that period then you must register to get a job seekers L permit. This will be issued providing you have sufficient funds to support yourselves while you look. If not, then you will be expected to leave the country.

3
Sorry - Yes we are EU nationals!

The confusion with the canton was over a temporary contract (6 months). We were told this is not a problem and we would have to present the contract and lease when we arrive in Zurich, another said we would have to have a work contract for 12 months at least to work there.

4
if you are afraid that Zurich is too boring, you'll better avoid Luxembourg

5

If you have a work contract then you can have a permit, it’s that simple. You will only get an L as the contract is for less than a year, but you will get it.

Gainful employment of more than 3 months:

Within 14 days of their arrival and before actually taking up work, nationals of EU-27/EFTA states have to register with the local authorities of the commune in which they are residing and apply for a residence permit. A valid ID or passport and a written confirmation of employment (e.g. the contract of employment containing details of the duration of employment and the number of working hours) have to be presented. A residence permit will be issued depending on the duration of employment: a short-term residence permit (type L permit) for employment of up to 364 days or a residence permit (type B permit) for employment of at least one year or for an unlimited period.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home…hweiz/faq.html

Either the person didn’t know the rules or Zurich are trying to stop immigration any way they can whether it’s allowed in law or not.

The Swiss did vote to curb immigration from the EU and that is due to come into force in February 2017 so there has been a general tightening up on following procedures. But the law is the law and you’re entitled to your L permit if you have a contract with enough hours and sufficient salary.

6
The immigration people (I assume you are talking to the Migrationsamt) are by far the worst civil servants in Zürich. Please do not let them color your impressions of the location overly much.

7
Be aware, Luxembourg makes Zurich look like Ibiza.

Also, income taxes in Luxembourg are higher, and the Luxembourg's airport is small whereas Zurich's is an international hub.

8
This. My friend moved to Luxembourg recently and it is a pretty, but according to her, dead boring place, I'm afraid.

Working conditions, however, may be far better in Luxembourg and no, I don't mean the salary, but vacation days, employee protection and so on. These are components many completely fail to factor into their decision-making (which then results in threats on EF like "my contract was terminated, can I sue").

9
Quite a few people work in Luxembourg and live across the border in Germany - much cheaper. The people I know all live in small towns though. I'm not sure if that's something that would appeal to you.

10

It's my home region and yes, that's how it's done. On the up-side does a Luxembourg salary get you a very nice and large landed house with garden... We sold my grandmas one with a huge plot of land and the right to put another house on it for about 200k EUR. That will maybe get you a garage in Zurich.

True, Luxembourg is not large and no, the night life is not exciting. But I take shopping in Trier over Zurich any day.

Simply put:

1. At the age of the OP: probably Zurich.

2. Family with kids: Luxembourg, the tax difference is nothing compared to the money you save on childcare and rent...

Anyone else is somewhere between and needs to decide on their life style choices.

11
I have lived in Luxembourg and Geneva and honestly, you cannot compare. It is a no brainer .

Switzerland all the way. And Zurich is better than Geneva.

Just think about it. Plenty of people (including many wealthy people) love living in Switzerland. How many people like living in Luxembourg? Luxembourg in a way is a hardship post and I am not exaggerating.

Most people I know come to Switzerland and never leave. Most people I knew in Luxembourg left. Switzerland is truly multicultural while Luxembourg famous "internationalism" is basically Portuguese immigrants and French and Belgians from nearby regions.

As for cost of living, if salaries are better in ZH go for it!.

Housing: Very expensive and shitty in Luxembourg (Paris prices, Brussels typical apartments). Zurich is more expensive but you can outside the city (see my next point).

Transportation: In Luxembourg you need a car. In Zurich (even outside) you don't need one. Outside Zurich there are lovely areas whilst outside Luxembourg most areas are places you would like to shot in your head.

Then people in the forum talk about living in Germany, France or Belgium. Good luck! Public transportation (train) is only reliable to France (train to Trier takes an hour for 50 km). If you drive, parking spots in Luxembourg have New York prices and traffic jams during working days in the motorways are amazing.

Food, etc.: Obviously it depends on your lifestyle, but I would say this is pretty standard today in the world, and that would be offset by higher salary. Not a big deal (main expenses are always house + transportation).

That is a funny point.

When working in Luxembourg, I had quite a terrible work experience (mobbing). So I became a little expert in "Code du Travail".

Luxembourg works quite similarly to Switzerland. Free market. Free dismissal. No severance package (only after 5 years and only 1 month). Unemployment benefits only 1 year (in CH I think it is two).

I had even thought about suing my employer (and I really had plenty of documentation, including many emails - not very smart from their side -) I decided against. I talked to lawyers (fortunately I got free advice from two from connections), to people in the Ministry of Work, Chambre des Salaries... their response was "yes your case seems very obvious but your employer has the right to (sack you/whatever)"

I would have need to hire a lawyer that would end being something like (at least) 20k EUR, months, and all for maybe a couple of months salary as indemnity, and all the psychological hassle and the need to be there. And then Luxembourg is very tiny so judges and companies are related. Remember, Luxembourg is not a direct democracy and everything is based about funding and taxation. By comparison, Luxembourg really makes Switzerland look as socialist as France or as rainbow-happy as California.

I know some other people with terrible stories.

And bear in mind one last point. If there is no more mobbing in Luxembourg is because for companies it is really hard to get some people there. I had a schizophrenic relation with my employer: at the same time they were mobbing me, they didn't want to let me go because it was hard for them to hire someone with my profile.

12
Agreed, no brainer. As regards overall quality of life go for Zurich.

13
Off topic, but - I finally "got" your username!

14
This is awesome. ^

However, a bit concerning for me that Zurich is being referred to as boring in many places...

15
having lived both places as an expat, and based upon the location in your profile (Edinburgh) and if I were you, I would choose Luxembourg. I say this, btw, with Zürich being my favorite place in the world and me being able to speak (mostly) the local language.

1. you can live your entire life in Luxembourg in English. literally, and completely without reservation.

2. the Luxembourgish people love English-speakers. they also love German-speakers, mostly because they are not French-speakers. more importantly (if your partner is German), the Luxembourgish people have absolutely zero prejudice against Germans (again, mostly because they are not French).

3. you can be as loud as you want in Luxembourg. ok, not entirely outside of the city in the rural village, but anywhere within 15km of the city (and everything is within 15km of the city) and there are virtually no rules like you will encounter in Switzerland.

4. when the French border workers vacate the country at 16:30 every Friday, you will have the entire country to yourself until Monday morning. you will also have the country entirely to yourself for the entirety of every August.

5. I will no doubt be groaned for this comment (and I probably deserve it), but you will find none of the undesirable immigrants in Luxembourg that you will encounter in Zürich. and, despite the political incorrectness of the statement, every native Zürcher knows exactly what I am talking about.

6. the food is 1,000x better and more diverse in Luxembourg. this seems counter-intuitive given the country's incredibly tiny size, but you can find everything from typical French cuisine to great Brazilian to great (and I mean seriously great) burgers to great pizza. the only thing that sucks in terms of food in Luxembourg is the döner (unbelievably, it is made only with chicken).

7. immigration is 10,000 easier in Luxembourg. settling longer term is also 10,000 times easier.

8. it is about 50% cheaper to live in Luxembourg, including food, housing and entertainment. as others have said, it is about 75% cheaper if you are willing to make the commute from the other side of the border into Germany (though at your ages why would you ever do that?).

9. there is almost no speed control.

the biggest downside is the lack of water. and it is a really big downside, honestly, but the climate in so much of central Europe is so mild and rainy that you will only really miss it 1 or 2 weeks out of the year.

also, people will say you will miss the mountains, but the hiking, etc. in the northeast corner of Luxembourg is all you will need unless you are really a world-class mountain-climber.

16
crazygringo, your thread is quite funny.

1. - I agree that Luxembourg tries to be paper-friendly and some paperwork is in English (I speak French so I cannot compare). That might you save a couple of calls when you are setting in Luxembourg. Completely irrelevant on day-to-day basis (where otherwise everything is in French and/or German). Most people on sales jobs are French, Portuguese or Luxembourgish and cannot speak English or speak very little (normal). As for Luxembourgish loving English speaking people, that is again quite subjective. Btw Luxembourgish people make about 30% of people in Luxembourg Ville (50% in the country) and most work as CEOs or for the government, so little contact on a professional day-to-day basis.

2. - Completely subjective. Like in Switzerland (or even Belgium), locals tend to consider Germanic culture superior (i.e. work wise) and French culture inferior (but better for holidays, food). Like in Switzerland, there are many more "frontaliers" from France than from Germany due to the economic circumstances of each country. So locals will take their kids to ETH Zurich to study (Luxembourg just has now a recent university, they didn't have before) and take holidays in Nice or Montpellier

3. - I can't see how that is an advantage.

4. - So living in a "ghost-town" that, like someone has very well said, makes Zurich looks like Ibiza in mid-summer makes "having the country for yourself"... that is positivism!!!

5. - That is somehow true, again depending on the areas. Luxembourg Ville (Gare) has a lot of drug traffic problems.

http://www.lequotidien.lu/faits-dive...quartier-gare/

http://www.lequotidien.lu/faits-dive...quartier-gare/

Esch-sur-Alzette (2nd city) had its own share of yihhadists. Number of refugees is growing very quickly (it is the EU so they cannot complain).

http://www.wort.lu/en/luxembourg/fro...b398870804383b

So I agree with you, Luxembourg overall is slightly safer than Zurich or Geneva. But what about the size of Luxembourg? You should compare Luxembourg with Bern or Luzern to make an appropriate comparison. It is like you compare Annecy to Paris almost and you tell me that Annecy is much safer.

In any case, quite irrelevant unless you choose to live in the worst area in Zurich. You are picturing Zurich like Caracas. I would like to remind you that even with all its problems is one of the safest cities on earth.

6. - A good thing is that you have French and German style food in supermarkets. However completely irrelevant as you can find any food in Zurich (I mean seriously where have you lived?). Would you move to a country because of its share of Brazilian restos? (that you can find in Switzerland anyway). In any case, I prefer Swiss food since I think it is better protected to GMO and all that stuff. Luxembourg is in the EU so you can buy anything imposed by the EU.

7. - I agree, being part of the EU. In addition, being a small country makes thinks very easy. However on the long term it shouldn't make a lot of difference if you are employed (and why would live unemployed in Luxembourg?)

8. - That is outset by salaries. For those not familiar with Luxembourg you can see salaries here http://paperjam.lu/sites/default/fil..._hays_2016.pdf

Salaries in Luxembourg are not higher than France or Germany for similar jobs. Just taxes are slightly lower. So why people go to LUX? Plenty of jobs. Also I reckon for families it might work better (insurance, price of schools). Also most of those foreigners come from nearby regions (notably France) so for them is just a way to get a better salary than at home ("frontaliers" like in Geneva)

But for a couple of singles, no brainer.

Btw Luxembourg housing prices are not much lower than Geneva, so I don't know what you are talking about with that 50%. I give you the doubt that Zurich is more expensive (I am not that familiar).

9. - Completely irrelevant (also a negative thing IMO).

So honestly out of your nine points, eight are in my opinion completely irrelevant. The only point I agree that would make your life easier is point 7., specially while setting in (however on a day-to-day basis it is much less important).

Btw I don't understand why this thing about Luxembourgish "being nice". As I say most Luxembourgish work in a) government jobs ("fonctionnaires") or b) CEOs of dodgy companies helping some foreigners to evade taxes due to their connections with the government, etc.

So hardly "interesting" people to speak so. At least in Switzerland you will find Swiss in any walk of life.

17
Btw I would like to point to that Luxembourg tries to be "paper-friendly" and "employee-friendly" to attract companies and people.

Again, it is hard to attract "talent" to some positions given the fact that many people does not want to live in the country. That is an issue for large companies (i.e. Amazon).

In Switzerland there is no problem to attract people.

So let's say Amazon in Luxembourg has a comparative disadvantage to Google in Zurich in terms of "talent attraction".

Making "things easier" is just a way to be more competitive (like having the lowest VAT in Europe).

In a way, Switzerland is a "harder" place to set/get in because it is just more attractive.

I just noticed the Edinburgh thing. Just completely anecdotical, but I had a friend from Glasgow who after 5 years working for a Big Four just resigned and move to Scotland without any job aligned. The reason? He couldn't cope with Luxembourg anymore.

18
Btw I am trying to "bash" any country. I am just trying to be objective.

And then there are personal circumstances. If the OP is offered a 60.000 CHF job in Zurich and a 100.000 EUR in Luxembourg, it is very different. Just comparing apples to apples.

Just a couple of points more:

- Weather : Weather is far worse in Luxembourg than in Geneva (not to mention Zurich or Ticino which have better weather). Luxembourg is shitty rainy Benelux weather (never too warm, never too cold... a perpetual humid rainy spring/autumn).

- Isolation: Luxembourg is very isolated. People say how it is in the "center of Europe". But

1. Airport is small (nothing compared to GVA or ZRH or even BSL!!)

2. Brussels or Koln are 2-3 hours away. Paris is 2 hours by high-speed train. The only nearby cities (by car of course) are Metz, Nancy and Trier. Not bad for a weekend but not a reason to live there.

19
there is never anything at all "objective" about peoples' preferences regarding where to live, other than finances.

to correct one of the many things you felt compelled to say regarding Luxembourg (all of which, btw, were completely subjective) - the only people I have ever encountered in Luxembourg who did not speak English were French.

20
Considering that French are the largest contingent of foreigners (and the "frontiers") that is a lot of people!