Attire & how much homework in state primary school?

Family, Education, Health and Pets
1
Hello,

We are moving to Fribourg in August and will send our two sons (ages 9 & 11) to state school. I am curious about a couple of things:

1. Attire. I've asked before and been reassured that kids don't dress "up" for school per se, but my boys like to dress VERY casually for school (which is ok here), wearing t-shirts with athletic shorts or even sweatpants. Do I need to warn them of any differences? (And I will need to shop here before going to ExpensiveLand!)

2. Homework. How much time do kids their age spend on homework each day?

Thank you!

2
Based on my experience with the Baselland school system -- so, the other side of the Röstigraben, but I would expect it to be the same "over there" -- your kids can wear what they like. There probably won't be much fashion competition going on, especially among the boys.

As for homework, your 9-year-old should have it easy (half an hour per day, usually only when he doesn't have school in the afternoon) but the 11-year-old will be caught up in the streaming process to sort him into Real or Gymnasium. If he (or you) wants to go to Gymnasium, he will need to do well academically (even at this early stage), and will get loaded up with a fair bit of homework.

It's good for their souls, though, or something.

3
Hmmm, that's interesting about the sorting process. We really will only be there for one year, but we most certainly would expect him to go the more rigorous academic route. They are only beginners in French, so I know the first month(s), they will likely not be "mainstreamed" anyway, but they will need to stay up to speed academically enough to return to their own grade levels when we return to the USA. They are both currently "above grade level" in both math and reading, so I'm not THAT worried about them falling behind per se.

I am planning on supplementing their Swiss education with things that they will "miss" from the U.S., such as any literature their classmates are reading and anything that is different about the math. On the other hand, not having much homework sounds GREAT from my perspective (and I'm sure from theirs)

4
I suggest you go through other postings about what happens with foreign kids who don't speak the local language before making any decisions. Especially given your short tenure.

They may, for example, go into an integration class where they concentrate mainly on language skills for a year. Then they may be reinserted into the mainstream a year older than most other kids (there's no shame in this; repeating years is not unusual. My daughter is approaching 18 and there are kids in her class who nearly two years younger than her, as she repeated a year)

Our experience was that the attitude of the teachers improved markedly to us and our children when they realised we were here permanently and wouldn't be taking the kids to another country in a year or two. You can understand that from their perspective it's not worth investing so much in kids who'll be gone next year. Remember, in Switzerland, foreign kids in a class is not the least bit unusual.

You may also find that you'll be under pressure from the school administration to put the kids in an English speaking private (international) school. However, the administration do have a legal duty to provide an education - I'm just saying you might well encounter resistance, as you're asking them to put in some effort for people who'll be gone in a year.

If they were younger, I think you'd be fine. But at that age, I think you really should (for their educations sake) consider that an international school might be the better option. Of course, if you haven't got 40'000CHF spare, then that's kind of moot!

5
I think it also depends on the teacher or school. My ten year old's teacher does not allow the children to wear tracksuit trousers (sweat pants) but jeans are fine.

It depends. Sometimes it takes twenty minutes or so but at other times a couple of hours or more.

Even in the normal primary school there can be streaming. Four of the children in my child's class have a few advanced lessons in lieu of the normal ones with the rest of the class. But they are also expected to learn what the rest of the class did in those lessons in their own time including the homework.

With some days starting at 7.30am, there can be some long days!

6
I have to agree that I don't often see kids in trainer trousers for normal school - sport and countryside events being the exception.

For information purposes, and possible consideration, the nearest private education facility (AFAIK) is located at St. Wolfgang, nr. Düdingen - about 10 mins east of Fribourg. I believe it's multi- lingual, but you'll need to check the website details.

It all reads a bit lefty-airy-fairy-liberalism to me, but it obviously suits some people.

http://www.tagesschule-sesam.ch/en/index.php

7
Thanks for all of your input, and I appreciate the heads up about the tracksuits - I will alert my children that they'd better get used to wearing real pants

Re: schooling... we will definitely not be going the private school route, for several reasons. When I was 13, I went to live with distant cousins in France for a whole year in southern France for the purpose of me learning French very well (it worked, although I am rusty now!). I was in a school where no one spoke English, there was no integration process - I just got thrown right into the deep end, and this was the best thing for me. I even knew it at the time, although of course it was difficult at times and at the beginning especially. I'm really not worried about the kids struggling academically. I am prepared to supplement at home any academics they need.

I don't know exactly where we will live yet, so I don't know which state school they will attend. Once I have gotten some other logistics off my plate, I may contact the two or three schools that are likely to be in the area we will live to get a better sense of each school's normal process with foreign kids.

The kids learning French to the most fluent extent possible is one of THE most important reasons we are spending a year there. It has been a gift for me to speak other languages, and I personally believe there is a huge advantage to learning it early in life.

8
I'm totally in favour of kids gaining additional languages. I'm very glad all three of mine are fluent German speakers.

It's just that it is important to be aware that due to language issues they may not progress as much academically as they might need to, in order to easily reintegrate into your home country's system.

9
Got it; yes, thanks. Good to keep in mind, especially for the older one. Where we live here in the U.S., 6th grade is considered "middle school" rather than primary (which is what it is in Fribourg, to my understanding). I'm happy about this, although when he gets back, he may have a rude awakening! One step at a time, so for the time being, I am happy he will still be in primary school for one more year (especially in another language).

Having been through it myself, I hope I can be helpful and empathetic to them. However, I do think it will be crucial for me to supplement with some home schooling while we are there to cover parts of the U.S. curriculum they won't be getting.

Thank you... I learn a little more every day!

10
I don’t want to be the party-pooper here but I think you will have to realise that your boys won’t have the same experience you had some twenty odd years ago (assuming).

Your children won’t be the only foreign ones that is for sure. Also they are very likely not the only ones with English as their mother tongue. Furthermore depending on where you end up English will be a subject at the school this means that all the children will already speak some English.

I am not saying that what you are planning to do does not work, all I am saying is be prepared for a very different experience to what you had! If you can, try to extend the stay to two years especially the older one might struggle with the language so this will give him some more time to acquire French properly and being able to speak it (lots of older children tend to be shy and don’t speak unless they know what they say is 100% correct. This may also happen with younger children but is less likely).

11
I do appreciate the warnings; I really am not naive about how this will all play out. Things that will not change :

* we will only be there for one year

* we are sending our children to state school

However, if anyone can give me an idea of how much homework my 11 year old can expect, that would be helpful. Thank you!

12
Can't help on the homework front as my sons are past that age, but a quick word on clothing.

Most clothing types are acceptable here, as long as the children are neat(ish), clean and aren't pushing style-boundaries too far.

Not sure athletic shorts would be acceptable (they're rather skimpy aren't they?), but bermudas or knee-length cut-offs would be okay. Same with tracksuit/sweatsuit bottoms, those should really be reserved for after school or the athletics field!

T-shirts are fine (as long as they don't have offensive slogans on), sleeveless singlets are probably not.

Then fleece or knit jumpers over the t-shirts on cooler days.

Bear in mind that it can get very cold here over the winter months, as I understand clothing is much cheaper in the States I'd suggest you consider investing in decent shoes or boots, jumpers, warm coats (puffa-type jackets are a good investment), hats, gloves, etc. Layers really.

And ski-wear if the boys intend to do winter sports, skis, skates and boards if required can be hired here easily on a daily-seasonal basis.

School satchels can be eye-wateringly expensive, when you contact the school ask what kind of bag is acceptable (you see a lot of Eastpak style bags here, especially amongst the older kids), so it might be worth bringing a couple of those each.... one for school and a second for leisure.

13
Really helpful guidance on clothing - thank you! This is what I mean by athletic shorts & sweatpants .

The weather in Fribourg is similar (actually slightly warmer) than here in Michigan, but I do need to stock up on appropriately-sized cold weather clothing. I really should have done that in November, when the stores still had that in stock! I will try in July before coming, as some stores around here do start reshelving that type of clothing around that time(!).

I am trying to get a grasp of what makes sense to bring with us, what to buy there (maybe in France or Germany?) and what to do without for the year. We will be bringing everything with us on the flight over rather than shipping. I purposely chose an airline that had a more generous luggage policy!

14
Shorts like that are probably okay, I had in mind those really skimpy running shorts you sometimes see on the track!

H&M and Go-sport are reasonably cheap for that type of clothing, both in Switzerland and France (I'd guess in Germany as well), their sales are always good too.

If it's just for one year you could probably get away with a ski jacket doubling up as a winter coat, depend on how fashion concious your lads are.

15
Here's a thread that may give you some ideas. Feel free to post there with further questions on what to bring :

What to bring from the US?

16
Those type if track pants would be fine around here. Most of the 9-12 year old boys seem to wear those ones.

Once they move up to college at 11/12 ish they seem to graduate into jeans for school so I'd go for those for your older boy although so e of my son's friends still go in those type of track pants.

I think a good ski jacket will be fine for winter. That's all my son wears and so do most of his friends.

You may be able to pick one up second hand fairly easily and cheaply when you arrive rather than bringing it over with you. In fact if I look I may have a couple suitable for your older son. Fleeces,jumpers and possibly trousers too.

As far as homework goes for your 11 year old it can be variable but won't be more than an hour a day and may be less. Our son was 11 when we moved here and that's about what be had. Different teachers work by different methods though. Our son's teacher gave the homework for the week on a Monday so the kids could organise themselves which day they chose to do it, for example our son had swimming on Tuesday after school so he would do some of the work due in on Wednesday on the Monday evening or Tuesday lunchtime so that he didn't have it to do on Tuesday evening. A friend's 11 year old ( in a different school ) has a teacher who gives the homework on a daily basis he has to do the homework on that day.

17
I'd stick with jeans - hardwearing and passepartout, as clothing go, and for summer, cotton shorts. The trousers and shorts you referred to are fine for sports, but perhaps not for school. Personally I won't send my kids in sweatpants or sport shorts - I have pictures of Vicky Pollard et. al, when I see those

18
That's what I thought.

28.5 years later, I'm still here.

Tom

19
For info, someone just posted an excellent guide to schooling in Fribourg in the Swiss-Schooling Yahoo group: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...Schooling/info - you might want to have a look or contact her.

As far as there being other native English speakers in the class go, that may or may not be true, but I suspect it is less likely in Fribourg than in, say, Zurich. In Bern our son is the only English speaker in his class. For extra language exposure it's also worth looking into 'accueil' - after-school care where they receive help with their homework and have more social contact with their classmates.

20
Hello. You might want to purchase the book, "Going Local, Your Guide to Swiss Schooling," by Margaret Oertig. Here's the link: http://www.bergli.ch/100/con_liste.asp?prono=72

It has a massive amount of information, much of which you won't need for your one year, but it also has a lot of reports on expats' experiences with state schools in Switzerland that would help you prepare to get the most for your kids during your year, and perhaps avoid some pitfalls. It really supports, or even advocates, entering your kids in state schools here when feasible for a family's circumstances, without in any way judging those families who choose international schools (and, indeed, noting the different advantages of the international route).

I truly understand and respect your desire for your children to really learn French (I hope you have them in classes now because every bit of French they can learn beforehand will really, really help them get a good start here) and really experience local living while you are here. And I can tell that you don't want to hear anything more about private schools, so I will bite my tongue! And, again, I really respect your determination. But consider one other factor that could affect your kids' experience here and whether they get out of it what you are hoping. Switzerland culturally is NOT France. For a lighthearted, easy-read, tongue-in-cheek look at the Swiss culture, you might read the the Xenophobe's Guide to Switzerland (and the Xenophobe's Guide to France for comparison). It will be really important for you to come to Switzerland prepared for the culture since you won't have the luxury of learning by trial and error over time.

The Going Local book has some blurbs from English-speaking kids who have started in Swiss state primary school. Some found it difficult to break in socially because, apparently, in many cases friendships form in enfantine/kindergarten/1H-2H, and classes tend to stay together and form fairly tight-knit groups. My kids aren't old enough for me to know from first-hand experience, but social reserve and slowly-developed, long-term friendship is certainly a recurring theme in observations about the Swiss. If your kids can't make friends, they may not learn French very well (a lot of language learning happens, of course, when they make friends), or enjoy the experience at all. Maybe you would still have been glad of your experience in France even if you had been unable to make friends....or maybe that would have altered your entire outlook toward French and language-learning.

Anyway, just keep in mind these challenges that you will need to overcome for your kids to make friends and learn French and have fun:

1. the state schools in Fribourg are big, and some of the schools are considered rough (by the Swiss, tho, I am not at all sure that an American would see them as rough) and can be intimidating (Vignettaz less so). Can you make a visit to check out the area and see the schools?

2. there are no school sports-teams (or chess clubs or whatever) or any after-school culture of the kind that you may be used to in America (though you can sign your kids up for one extra-curricular activity each, which may or may not take place at your school)

3. parents do not take their children to and from school when they are as old as your children (by then Swiss children are pretty independent, and all who attend Fribourg state schools live within walking distance) so your ability to connect with other parents and arrange "play dates" for them will be really limited

4. another poster to this thread is correct that in Fribourg your kids would be two of many foreigners (no particular excitement about it). And the poster from Bern is correct that there are few native English-speakers in the mainstream classes in Fribourg, but I don't know how the schools handle primary-school kids who don't speak French--apparently in many areas they mostly attend welcome classes at first, which would mean your kids would become friendly initially with other non-French-speaking kids, and perhaps some of those might be English-speaking, which could derail your plans. Mainstream class kids the age of your older son will have had a year of English in school, and this might help your son socially because English is a little bit "cool" here, so kids may try to speak it with your son, which is at least some kind of foot in the social door for him, but they won't speak it well enough for English to be the default language, as long as your sons can learn some French before they arrive.

5. the Swiss kids in the mainstream programs may not be especially welcoming (not because they are unfriendly, just that they have their groups of friends already, and Swiss kids are not French (or American) in terms of wanting to talk to anyone and everyone and being open to making a new "best friend" every day, making and shedding friends fairly casually. I don't find the Swiss cold or unfriendly at all--quite the opposite--but I am someone who doesn't need a lot of social engagements, and I'm not sure that Swiss kids make the same effort that many Swiss adults do. And it has been easier for me than it will be for you because I have young kids, so it is easy to talk to other parents on the playground, not like in primary school. And we're here indefinitely. I do kind of agree with another poster that on some level the administrative support you receive at the state school may subconsciously be effected by your short stay. Lots of immigrants really need to learn French for their ability to function in the long term in Switzerland, and the school needs those kids to learn because the school is responsible for them for the coming years. And I think the Swiss kids, and possibly parents, might discount you a bit also, knowing you'll disappear off the face of the earth in a year.

But I think with the effort you're obviously willing to put into it, you can have a great experience, and achieve your goals for your kids! Perhaps you can really focus on structuring all your decisions around promoting language-learning and therefore on forced interaction. It's not France, people don't hang around conversing in cafes just for the heck of it! You'll need to seek out situations that involve purposeful engagement. Find groups. Scouting would be perfect, but here in Fribourg I think it only exists in Swiss-German. There are lots of athletic "clubs" because of no school sports teams, and you can find music lessons at the conservatoire. You can find activities and sign your kids up from the U.S.--and you should because things fill up. (Speaking of which, um, housing? I kind of thought you had to arrange that farther in advance than just a few months ahead. Do you have leads on areas that you are considering?)

Even if you are against "overprogramming" your kids in the U.S., you should abandon that for this year. I could see someone thinking it would be best to leave the kids' schedules open after school so that they are free to make friends on their own, but that would be a mistake here, given your goals. Group activities where the kids all speak French but the teacher is also able to speak English might be great. It will be easier for your kids to learn French if the teacher can put in a key word or two, I think, and it doesn't involve a risk that your kids will be able to lapse into conversing in English. You are obviously well aware that you have to avoid native-English-speaking kids and groups like the plague!

And, ok, I can't help it, I have to suggest that you think just once more about private school. Not international school, not English-language school. A school I've written about in Fribourg is ELPF, a small, Swiss, French-speaking private school. Consider living in Fribourg if you will work in Lausanne or Bern

Just to show you how not-international it is, I'll tell you that the tuition this year for one child was 5,800 CHF (but likely will increase some as it grows) vs maybe 30,000 CHF or so for an international school. (There aren't any in Fribourg, but I've heard they are at least 30,000 elsewhere.) Tuition for additional children is discounted, so for your two kids you'd have paid just 9,600 CHF (total for both tuitions) this year. If you want your kids to stay at school for lunch (or to go early or to stay late), that costs more, and the cost depends on how many days you want that extra time. There is no instruction during this time, just kid-to-kid interaction, so plenty of time to socialize in French!

The advantage to you would be that it is a small school and easier for you to meet other parents (in order to facilitate socializing for your kids) and for your kids to make friends (it's got a small-community feel to it, and is small enough that I imagine the primary-school kids actually do welcome newcomers). It doesn't have the resources for regular and mainstream classes, so it would be total immersion for your two from day 1! (Assuming the school was willing to take on non-French-speakers--it has a reputation for being somewhat more rigorous academically than the state schools and wouldn't want to slow the other kids down.) I imagine you'd need to get a tutor for the kids--perhaps you could find a university student willing to sit in on your kids' classes and help them at the beginning? Anyway, I'm done and hope I haven't offended you. I really, really support your enthusiasm and determination for language learning, and I think state schools in the Fribourg area could be a great way to go, as could the private school in Fribourg.

Wait! One more thing, whichever school you go with, maybe post a question to the group about what kinds of things 9 and 11 year old boys think are cool that are not readily available here in Switzerland and that you could pack in your suitcases? (I have young girls and no clue for the older kids.) Little things that could facilitate interaction or serve as token gifts if/when they get invited to another kid's house. Or things to exchange, like whatever the current hand-held game system is for the age group, you might check out whether there are compatible cartridges/games here and bring extra cartridges so that your kids could loan/trade their English ones for for their classmates' French ones. (English is a little "cool," as I said above, and parents here do want their kids to learn English, so, frankly, your kids might be more welcome in their homes if they can also help their friends learn English or at least want to learn English.)

And maybe post a question asking if anyone here has contacted a teacher before arrival to ask if there is anything they could bring for their kids' classes to enjoy on the first day? Or if their class will perhaps be studying anything during the course of the year that you could "accessorize" from America, like bring packets of NASA freeze-dried astronaut ice cream if they'll be doing a unit on space (many people here have never heard of it and few always wanted to try it), or bring some vintage gee-gaws you can get off of eBay for whatever historical period they may study. (Ebay doesn't exist here.) For end-of-school or Xmas gifts to teachers, we've done things like gift boxes of Jelly-Bellies, maple-syrup samplers, things like that, and the teachers have loved them because it gives them a taste of something genuinely American/foreign that is not available here. (It is REALLY hard to think of American things to give for gifts that wouldn't seem offensive or condescending or poor quality/unnatural and that aren't already available worldwide.) But, ask the group maybe before asking a teacher--teachers tend not to disclose as much about lesson plans in advance as American teachers do, and I don't know if it is on principle or not, if you might be seen as pushy or intrusive for asking. I'm still really new here.

Good luck!