I was thinking if it makes sense to buy an AWD car.
I live and work around Bern, I plan to go several times per year to Germany and Poland and also would like to visit nearby countries like Italy and France, also during the winter.
I plan to move to a house around Bern sometime in 2010, and it could be that I maybe decide to select a bit remote location towards the mountains.
Would it be wise to invest in an AWD car or just stick with FWD?
I have had a number of two wheel drive cars in the last five years here and alway drove them regardless of the weather (and have seen BMWs spinning around on the highway...). I would say that in your case AWD is as always nice to have, but especially when you will drive as much as you plan to, it becomes a cost factor: My midsized car will easily consume 0.5-1 liter more per 100km when equipped with "Quattro"...
I thought about the Impreza WRX STI.
I drive a 1994 Toyota Celica GT since 2006 with a FWD and 175hp, and I claim that this car pretty much teached me how to drive, together with a friend that used to drive in European Rally Series.
I have my driving license since 1999, but I look down on the cars before like Golf 3 Station Wagon or Opel Vectra, they were **** compared to the Celica.
But nevertheless I think that the Subaru would be a wise choice, especially now that my GF always goes like OOH and AAH when she sees a horse.
I already learned to spell clinger lol
When I used to drive in the USA in snow storms I observed the following. If you drive too fast you will have the following reactions in icy and snowy dangerous conditions.
FWD: means when you crash you slide into things headfirst.
RWD: means when you crash you can slide into things backwards.
AWD: means when you crash you spin off the road. Very graceful pirouette!
I have seen so many people forgetting no matter what kind of car you drive they all stop obeying the same laws of physics.
Being a fairly aggressive driver I can tell you that I don't like FWD vehicles in snow and ice as when you start to loose control you tend to understeer and you don't get control back. I prefer RWD over FWD because you get the front wheels steering and the rear wheels driving. This means that all of the work isn't being done by just the front tires.
AWD is very nice if you exercise some basic caution. If you drive too fast nothing stops you. You can't break the laws of physics just because you have AWD. Also, if you feel yourself start to slip you can gently power out of the situation. One down side of AWD is that there is extra moving mass in the driveline. This can make a difference in how the car handles. This gives the car more momentum which can be a good thing or a bad thing.
The different types brake differently as well. For example with AWD if you lock up one wheel and all of the axles are connected and you could end up rapidly locking up all of the wheels. With FWD, you are likely to effectively lock up the front wheels if you decelerate too rapidly. With RWD, you can lock up the rear wheels if you decelerate too quickly in slick conditions. This is why some people like FWD as it is the most forgiving in these situations. This is also why I wouldn't recommend buying a modern car without ABS. (Don't know if you can.)
The real reason I like AWD best in this country is that it allows you to accelerate in a straight line no matter what the road conditions are. Unless of course you can't move at all. My wife's A4 with FWD was scary in the mountains as on hills it would slide sideways when I was trying to go uphill. RWD does it less and AWD hardly does it at all.
If you have FWD you will need chains, unless you don't care about getting where you are going. They put the chains required signs in about the right places every time. I found that even good snow tires don't do well enough in the steeper parts of the mountains. And in this country it doesn't take much until you are there.
Yes, AWD cars will get slightly less mileage. From .5 to 1 L/100km depending on how the AWD setup is designed.
Good Luck choosing,
Brian.
My guess is that the one FWD car you had was not that enjoyable alltogether (not only in snow)? An underpowered hatch at college perhaps? We all had them...
My first car had quite some issues to climb a snowy hill, not a question of the poor 60bhp, but because it had close to zero torque. So actually, a mid-sized diesel with high torque on low rpms would be ideal (or anything modern which comes with all the fancy electronics to prevent the excessive power to do any damage at all).
Due to my driving preference, I chose a rear wheel drive BMW when I moved here. After one very embarrassing incident of having to be pushed out of a ski area parking lot by bystanders, I now put snow tires on it about this time every year. Despite traveling to ski area's on average 4 times per week in the winter, I don't find myself spinning, slipping, flipping, crashing, or flying airborne into a deep frozen chasm despite my earlier expectations.
The Swiss are astonishingly good about clearing roads. They have seen snow before and they know when to expect it. I bought chains for my car, but have yet to crack the seal on the case entering my third cold season here. I do take pride in my ability to drive. In other words, you have to suck pretty bad at driving to justify a gas guzzling juggernaut cruzer here. If you don't picture yourself having to rescue your children from a crevasse, a normal car is fine for the majority. Just my opinion.
I bicycle a lot and most of the situations that bother me usually involve a woman piloting a large 4x4 while smoking and gabbing on a cell phone in the summer time on a perfectly clear road.. Very scary, but you really have to admire the self confidence that their LR Defender or Merc G-wagen gives them. Their hopes for safety apparently come at the expense of others. FTW.
Yeah, the first thing I do when driving on ice is upshift way early.
Actually, on slick ice the best car in an automatic transmission that upshifts early with aggressively siped tires. (Studs or chains are nice too.)
To much power on ice is the same as no power on ice.
The most important thing to do on ice is to avoid wheel spin. Once you start spinning the wheels you have melt the ice until you get to the pavement underneath. I ran into this situation last year and it is very tedious. It was wear the tires a bit or go home.
This was with snow tires and FWD. I bought chains the next time it snowed and I had to drive up a hill.
Didn't have this problem with the AWD vehicle that I now own and the conditions were far worse.
Brian.
I've found that most of the important roads (and even some off the beaten track roads up around 1000 meters in the mountains) are sufficiently cleared and salted to get around without a serious problem. I also carry chains just in case and have only needed them once, if that. If you know that a foot of fresh snow is going to be on the ground, you could even take a shovel along - one of those light and small avalanche jobbies work well.
Or you could get a Subaru, becasue they are cool The foresters look a bit like a bread box but I drove one for a couple of years and found it great. The more squared off shape makes for better luggage capacity, and the low set boxer engines make the handling on all 'Scoobies' really nice too. They also have fantastic ground clearance (handy in 0.5m snow), where the WRX and Impressa etc don't so much.
If you're looking for a Subaru alternative, I have also seen that Toyota makes an AWD version of the corolla and Celica (corolla based engine anyways). The RAV4 is also an option, but I looked at one of those when buying an AWD myself and found the fittings a bit cheap and plasticy compared to the Subaru. The ground clearance was terrible too. Maybe that's changed in the last 4 years though...
Anyone know how much more expensive japanese cars are compared to European cars? It seems if you want an AWD european car you need to go in to the big, costly options?
All in all though I wouldn't say that an AWD is absolutely necessary here. Like you say - the trains etc are a great alternative in an emergency (or even for general use )
Have fun car shopping!
Puddy
As an example, I was going to the ski area that my daughter likes and was stopped behind a man in a FWD car who was not able to go up the hill. He was spinning his wheels and going nowhere but sideways. He proceeded to turn around and I thought that he was going to go back. Instead, he put the car into reverse and backed all the way up the hill with no wheel spin at all. In other words the FWD is only advantageous when most of the weight is settled over the driving wheels. Driving forward, up hill, in inclement weather, this is not possible. With a rear wheel drive car this would have been a more natural behaviour for the vehicle. Of course one might need a bag of sand in the boot to add some weight over the drive wheels if the weight distribution is less than optimal.
There is one area where I feel that FWD has a clear advantage. When one comes to put the chains on there is no need for thought. They go on the driven wheels and those are also the steering wheels so it is very simple.
You are absolutely correct about torque over horsepower. Diesel engined cars are wonderful for driving in snow and ice. That is as long as you don't have trouble with the fuel gelling. Plus when it's -30C or lower outside diesels don't like to start gracefully. Although the newer ones are getting better all of the time.
Over the millions of miles that I have driven in my life I have never felt safer in FWD cars than in RWD cars. I grew up in the US Midwest and if you didn't drive you didn't go. No real public transport so one ends up driving in some pretty amazing kinds of weather conditions. I will admit that the Swiss Traffic Department does have its act together when it come to clearing the roads. Unlike France.
Brian.
I have a BMW 330xiT and it is a wonderful compromise between the larger car I drive in the States (RWD) and the A4 Break (FWD) that my wife has here. You can buy a nice used one for less than 25Kchf. Same goes for Audi Quatros. Subarus are reasonable AWD cars as well. Every time I read a review of them they are rated as being comfortable and reliable and easy to drive.
I don't tend to like Japanese cars as I don't find them comfortable compared to European models. However, if one wants to have a Toyota (knock off of Land Rover) I have been in them in very bad weather and they are extremely competent. Just don't think that you are going to get good fuel economy.
If the OP is going to drive across passes in the winter and live in a remote area then he might be well advised to get an AWD car. I was seriously thinking about getting the 530dT without AWD and my wife pointed out that with the way we drive/travel it would be foolish not to have AWD. If for no other reason than the comfort of knowing that we would have to screw up badly before we got stuck.
Brian.
In my experience it's only Beemers and Mercs (RWD) that you see stuck in normal conditions.
We have winter diesel in Switzerland which will not wax at temperatures you will ever experience here. All diesels have glow plugs which guarantee starting as long as the fuel can flow (you might need to wait a few seconds). Anyway, below -30 is exceptional, even in the mountains.